Half-Breeds

[Caravan]

It started because I ran this proposal (spoilered below) through the GM forums as I was trying to get definitive clarification as to whether half-breed NPCs were allowed. When I was doing research on the forums, I kept coming across old threads where, though half-breed PCs were forever off-limits, having NPC children was continuously given the OK by GMs. The only "no" I had as evidence was in our GM policy update list based on discussions that I didn't have logs for.

Spoiler:

Howdy, all!

So, I was about to write up a whole new, shiny proposal in defense of Interracial Pregnancies and Halfbreed NPCs; however, I've come up completely short on anything that actually prohibits them!

The closest resource that I've come to is that Half-Breed Player-Characters are prohibited on CotH. I could not agree more -- As it says in the page, enjoy and embrace a full-blooded character! So, again to get that out of the way, I'm not asking for (nor am I interested in) permitting players to run amok with half'n'halfs.

I did not do my research when I denied a half-bred NPC child in a history as I was taking the word that it was not a permissible concept. The only other instance I have to go off of is the forced-retcon of Jami and Hrodebert's pregnancy which was retconned seven months in --- I have yet to find any ruling in the GM Forums about that or why it was suddenly denied. It's also confusing as... most of the GM responses in the threads I have seen is that interracial pregnancies are permissible (and come with IC consequences -- as they should).

From this thread:

I think you can ICly have them, but they would never be playable. IE: No one will be able to roll and play the child and it would forever be an invisible NPC....There are a few examples of interbreeding in lore, thus it's not impossible in the least. I assume anything humanoid-isk in nature is compatible with each other.

Sure, have your half-breed child. Know that it will never be roleplayed as, though. And know the ramifications for having one are severe (ICly).

(Also present in that thread is a speculation chart of races that could breed. If we've got alien humanoids mixing (drae-orc, drae-human, orc-human) and it's a fantasy game, then it's pretty much fair game. Just no, you know, deer-elf crossbreeds @____@)

In this private discussion thread, it was not immediately ruled-out. Of course, mixed children should be within reason: Poor Tauren should not really be capable of reproducing outside of their own race and not just because of size issues: Tauren are, arguably, the most bestial of the races.

There are actual lore examples of draenei being compatible with orcs, and a single lore character that is half human, quarter orc, and quarter draenei. So, they can all presumably interbreed, and all be able to breed with elves. Which also means they are likely able to do so with trolls, given the common source, though there's no real lore backing that one up.

We don't know about tauren, gnomes, dwarves, or the minor races. It's likely it's just never come up.

I apologize if I put words in your mouth, but if Grakor doesn't outright shoot it in the head, it seems to be all right!

Etmosril also asked about half-bred children:

I believe the policy is that you can have these children. And if CotH is around long enough for them to become adults, then you can RP as them.

I actually asked for permission first from the admins. It actually made a lot of lulz on vent, but it was allowed.

I do believe it's allowed because babies are NPCs, they are a puppet of your character, but they aren't a character itself. It's like when people puppet their succubus while no one is allowed to play a demon, or puppet their hunter pet when you aren't allowed to play an animal.

That is all.

A thought brought up from this post:

...I can only assume that if you can have sexual intercourse with it, you can make babies with it, in the WC universe.

Now it's whether or not that child would survive being given birth to...is the question. Generally this would rely on the woman bearing the child being -very- healthy. Because their body is dealing with something very alien in their body, and would most likely need even more strength to handle it than they would a child of their own race...

I do not think we should force miscarriages or pregnancy complications upon players. If they want to make that personal choice, then that is on them.

A bit late on this but

/agree

Also I've always kinda assumed most of the stuff that is humanoid would have half breeds be plausible. I kinda discount the Tauren some, and of course the forsaken. I'm not sure why the Tauren, but I guess its 'cause they're so different body wise.

But hey, whadoIknow, Draenei and Orc, two races not even from the same planet, have worked before. /shrug.

So what's the point, Caravan? This was a really long post!

As it stands, it seems to be a bit nebulous so I want clarification on this policy. I really haven't seen any firm "no"s other than opinions in conversation that one doesn't want to see it in one's RP. I believe that half-breeds (and their parents) should face IC consequences (do not bring your half-bred child (particularly if you're interfactional) to factional cities) and, yes, I really think it should be something that should be allowed as it's mostly a personal RP thing.

A final note: I do not believe that having a firm 'yes' on permitting this will result in a sudden rush to produce half-breed children. Many characters don't want that risk, or simply don't want the burden of children.


Thank you very much for taking the time to read this, it is appreciated.

Best,
Caravan

I was interested to see if a civil, well-thought-out and evidenced proposal would get anywhere. If it did, I was hoping to try to extend such a format/method to show to players who might have some radical ideas. Proposals and requests, rather than demands.

For those who are on-the-fence about racial mixings, here is the second half of my proposal for your review if you're interested:

Spoiler:

Warning, this is long, but I thank you for your patience in reading it in its entirety!

To throw my viewpoint out there pretty bluntly, if orc, draenei and humans can interbreed (each being from a different -planet-), then I'm kinda under the impression that absolutely any playable race is viable.

Firstly, I (personally) agree with this completely. If a creature from a planet very far away (Argus) can successfully breed with another planetary creature (Draenor), and if a creature from Draenor (orc) can interbreed with yet another alien creature (Azeroth!) than that makes a strong case for most pairings: If they're humanoid, they can kinda go along with each other.

Anywho, Thanks for the patience while ImagenAshyun and I compiled our proposal! Here's what we propose:

Just because they haven't been seen doesn't mean they can't happen. With the above being taken into consideration quite a bit could be extrapolated from it.

So for the sake of continuity, and my own personal taste in a full list rather than one that's scattered, here's what I view as lore-approved races. Personally however, I think any race would ICly be able to have a child with any other race, but alas, not everyone has the same opinion:

Human/Draenei
Human/Ogre
Human/Elf*
Human/Orc
Human/Gnome

Orc/Draenei
Orc/Elf*
Orc/Ogre
Orc/Gnome

Draenei/Elf*
Draenei/Ogre
Draenei/Gnome

Gnome/elf

Elf*/Ogre

Troll/Human
Troll/Orc
Troll/Gnome
Troll/Ogre
Troll/Elf*
Troll/Draenei

Dwarf/Human
Dwarf/Gnome
Dwarf/Draenei
Dwarf/Elf*
Dwarf/Troll
Dwarf/Ogre
Dwarf/Orc

CaraNote: Elf*, in this post, encompasses Night Elves, Blood Elves, High Elves, Highbourne, etc. Playable elves.

Second CaraNote: I scratched out some Gnome pairings for reasons outlined below.

Third CaraNote: I scratched out the Mok'Nathal (half-ogres) -- they're already taken care of through CMC and no one can play Ogres. Thanks for the catch, Rigley!

Building off of this list, we would like to further add:

If we add goblins to the list, I imagine goblins could interbreed with orcs, trolls, gnomes, and dwarves off of the top of my head. They could possibly be paired with humans and elves as well. Rigley suggested to me that Goblins would probably have a similar stipulation to gnome women in terms with what they could successfully breed with. Basically keeping to gnome/dwarf/goblin/human/orc range.

Worgen are basically human, so let's say that Worgen can breed with humans in their human forms. As for interbreeding with others, possibly the curse doesnt transfer? I don't really know enough about the Curse to speculate fully about that, but it seems to work. At the very least, I'm convinced that Worgen-Human interbreeding is quite all right as they are essentially human most of the time.

Tauren cannot really interbreed with others as, arguably, they're the least humanoid and the most bestial. Another bestial humanoid that shouldn't be allowed to interbreed (not that this should be a true issue as they aren't playable characters) with PCs would be the Naga.

Gnome females, for health reasons, could probably not bear non-gnome/dwarf/human/goblin children. Anything extra would be a toll on their body that they couldn't pay -- It would be too much to try to build horns, hooves, tusks, etc. in addition to a bigger body than could be comfortably carried. However, gnome males could probably breed outside of their size, to a point.

Forsaken are dead tissue and cannot reproduce under any circumstance. No Forsaken women carrying babies in their dead wombs, no Forsaken men expelling dead seed that somehow bears fruit.

Pregnancies for big racial size differences (for instance, belf female with draenei male) may result in a lot of difficulties and health issues (trying to get enough nutrients, trying to gain weight to accomodate the demands of a changing body). Also, I'd wager that some of these children would need to be birthed via a C-Section. We can't exactly force people to undergo difficult pregnancies, but it's something I would make a mention of if the player hadn't considered it already. It can be hard enough for human-human .

[3/14/2013 3:40:12 PM] Rigley: I kinda get the feeling that that might also come with some kind of definitive factional rebuttal. Since that's not nearly as hard to hide as a dating pair in neutral territory.
[3/14/2013 3:40:48 PM] Rigley: ...This kinda ties into your idea for exiles and the like, I do suppose.

I liked your idea, Rigley, and I was mulling over it a bit:

I like this, as I said, but at the same time I don't as I don't see it becoming widespread common knowledge that a pairing has an interracial child, particularly if the baby is not present. By this, I mean to the extent that every guard and every settlement would know about a particular couple. For the sake of RP, it could be a "Don't Ask, Don't Tell".However, I think we could stipulate this consequence if there is abuse by the parents of bringing their babies into places where they're not welcome or flaunting the fact that they're actively crossbreeding. This provides us a way of policing abuses, which is something I would like as to do a bit of quality control. Overall, I imagine most parents would keep a tight lid on that so as to protect their families.

Glad everyone is taking the time to vote on it. Best wishes, all.


Oh, wait, quick edit: I didn't/don't really want playable half-breeds. There are a ton of races and groups to play with as it is :3

...Second edit as I forgot to type: If there are PC Half-breeds, I think that Lore-confirmed mixes should be the gold standard. Otherwise, I think that NPCs have more freedom.

[Torches]

I believe that players should be allowed to play half-breeds if they want to, but there should be some restraint with what kind of pairings they want to choose in their background. So, sure!

I do also really hope this does just mean half-breeds though, and not... a little bit of everything like Med'an. I'm sorry to those of you who that may appeal to, but that's just an absolute no-no in my books.

[Reigen]

While I respect your opinion, I feel your argument for it is a little lacking. "We don't need more options because we already have options." isn't really a solid justification. Races add to the variety and the overall possibilities.

It's not like a sandwich where too many types of meat and cheese ruin the entire meal for everyone. It's like a buffet where people should be allowed to choose what they want within reason.

SorryIpromiseI'mnotpickingonyouoranythingitsjustthatyourargumentwassortabotheringmebutyou'retotallyallowedtohaveyourownopinionforrealsIstillrespectthatyo!

VOUCH BAN.

But, no. It wasn't really meant to be an argument, more so my opinion on them. We have enough races now that are underplayed without adding new ones, and I'd rather see more gnomes than I would half-breeds. I didn't want to start anything with why I really dislike half-breeds, but I suppose it can't harm.

I find half-breeds, frankly, to be a gateway of mary-suedom this server has been trying to distance itself away from long enough. I can see this turning into an argument of 'well, why not multi-classing?'. Also keep in mind at buffets, if your food comes in contact with something you're allergic too, then yeah, it becomes your problem.

I picked this server over any other RP medium to get away from things like HALF-DEMON HALF ANGLE VAMPIRE ROBOT CYBORGE MAGIC GIRL type RP. Half-breeds were one of the things that just kind of drove me out of wanting to RP. One of the main reasons I left Gaia Online is because they'd always show up in RP. And you can't block them out if you really dislike them.

If they were allowed, it's not really giving other players a chance to not interact with them. I know I really wouldn't want to have them in my RP, and most my characters would honestly try to kill them for being abominations. Yet, kind of like with having a racist character, most everyone is going to white knight for them and drive you out of RP for reacting properly.

I feel like I'm going to end up getting shoved out of RP and out of COTH because I joined this server to get away from this type of stuff, not to see them added.

[Grakor456]

Where is the proposal that was provided? There was a detailed list of what options can be provided so that the players and server can consider their options.

I don't see it.

We aren't going to throw a list that is currently in contention. This is precisely why this thread exists, to see what kinds of combinations the community would get behind in general terms, whether we should sick with "canon" combinations, include non-canon ones, or just reject the idea wholesale. A firmer list can come after.

What I can give is this:

Half-breeds that are confirmed as canon due to their presence in some type of canon lore:
Human/High Elf
Human/Orc
Human/Draenei
Orc/Ogre
Orc/Draenei
Troll/Night Elf

While not canon anymore, the following is posited by the d20 and thus is "dubiously canon":
Orc/Troll

Other combinations are up in the air.

[flammos200]

While not canon anymore, the following is posited by the d20 and thus is "dubiously canon":
Orc/Troll

Same for Forlarren. They're the offspring of Kaldorei and Demons. If they're raised by Night Elves, they tend to end up good, and get treated like Demon Hunters. If they're raised by the Legion, well, they end up little better than their demonic parent.

"Forlarren are the result of night elf and Burning Legion couplings, typically unwilling. Their demonic parents raised most of them, either because they were kidnapped at birth or because their elven parents were themselves kidnap victims. Forlarren raised in elven lands are treated with suspicion, but are taught to suppress their evil tendencies. Forlarren raised by the Burning Legion have their evil encouraged."

I still support 'em.

[Delta]

I voted Yes, but let's show some restraint (only stick to confirmed lore examples). We don't actually know for sure if races beyond those confirmed are capable of producing children of mixed racial heritage, and that's the primary reason for my slightly conservative vote.

(But how adorable would a Dwome be?)

[c0rzilla]

I'm for it. Don't see much reason not to do it, and I think CotH handled any stuff thrown at it well enough.

And as for the terrifying slippery-slope to Mary Sue hell--this is why it's a process. We'll likely dip our proverbial toes in the water with limits and such.

This is why we do introductions, this is why we do profiles, both special and not.

Come on.

The test for possible half-breeds will be if Immy and Sachi can draw it pretty enough.

[Hexproof]

Some things were removed for the sake of saving space.

We have enough races now that are underplayed without adding new ones, and I'd rather see more gnomes than I would half-breeds. I didn't want to start anything with why I really dislike half-breeds, but I suppose it can't harm.

I find half-breeds, frankly, to be a gateway of mary-suedom this server has been trying to distance itself away from long enough. I can see this turning into an argument of 'well, why not multi-classing?'. Also keep in mind at buffets, if your food comes in contact with something you're allergic too, then yeah, it becomes your problem.

I picked this server over any other RP medium to get away from things like HALF-DEMON HALF ANGLE VAMPIRE ROBOT CYBORGE MAGIC GIRL type RP. Half-breeds were one of the things that just kind of drove me out of wanting to RP. One of the main reasons I left Gaia Online is because they'd always show up in RP. And you can't block them out if you really dislike them.

If they were allowed, it's not really giving other players a chance to not interact with them. I know I really wouldn't want to have them in my RP, and most my characters would honestly try to kill them for being abominations. Yet, kind of like with having a racist character, most everyone is going to white knight for them and drive you out of RP for reacting properly.

I feel like I'm going to end up getting shoved out of RP and out of COTH because I joined this server to get away from this type of stuff, not to see them added.[/color]

Argument wasn't really the right word and I am sorry for that. Was my bad. Justification might be better, I guess? Anyway that part hardly means anything and like I said I respect your opinion but ultimately feel differently.

I'm not trying to press a case for anything, but I feel this thread is the appropriate place to state my opinions on the matter:

We have enough races now that are underplayed without adding new ones, and I'd rather see more gnomes than I would half-breeds.

This part is that same justification that bothers me. It's just... "We don't have enough of X so even though X is in no way limiting or limited by Y, we shouldn't allow Y because I like X more than Y." Again, you're totally entitled to your opinion but I'm entitled to disagree with it!

I find half-breeds, frankly, to be a gateway of mary-suedom this server has been trying to distance itself away from long enough.

I picked this server over any other RP medium to get away from things like HALF-DEMON HALF ANGLE VAMPIRE ROBOT CYBORGE MAGIC GIRL type RP. Half-breeds were one of the things that just kind of drove me out of wanting to RP. One of the main reasons I left Gaia Online is because they'd always show up in RP. And you can't block them out if you really dislike them.

Isn't this exactly why we have the whole introduction system? The gruntship system? Profiles in general? I don't think anyone here is arguing for SUPER MECHA FUNTIME ANGEL DEVIL GNOME POWER RANGER VAMPIRE FUN FORCE (Note to self: Good (or horrible) name for an indie band) or anything like that. Provided they can be played well, it's pretty easy to not be a Mary Sue with a Half-Elf or Half-Orc, really. Mary Sues are what they are not because of their inherent qualities, but because of how their qualities are portrayed, and going too far to avoid Mary Sues can end up just as bad as what one was trying to avoid.

If they were allowed, it's not really giving other players a chance to not interact with them. I know I really wouldn't want to have them in my RP, and most my characters would honestly try to kill them for being abominations. Yet, kind of like with having a racist character, most everyone is going to white knight for them and drive you out of RP for reacting properly.

... Now this part I take some issue with because in this case it really feels like you're passive-aggressively calling the entirety (or at least most of the server) bad roleplayers because they have characters who have differing priorities from what your characters have. And you do have every right and ability not to interact with a half-breed character, same as any other character or player or the like. I know for a fact that I have in the past avoided RP with certain characters or players based on all manner of reasons.

Nobody is ever forced into contact with anyone else on CotH and that's in part because of the clique-ish nature of how the server tends to operate. There will inevitably be people like yourself who don't agree with half-breed PCs, and I'm sure they'd be more than happy to RP with you.


Again I want to emphasize how I am in no way trying to start an argument or some grand debate or anything of the like. I'm just putting forth my feelings and my opinions on how others are treating the perceived problem and how I myself feel towards it.

[CappnRob]

Hexproof, bro, this isn't a thread for debating what other people's opinions are. If you want to do that, take it to PM or something.

[Rigley]

Yeah, I don't really think we're arguing over what Reigen thinks, just trying to see what the majority opinion is. Arguing is kinda unneeded, heh.

[Sorum]

I'd rather have high elves playable.

[Harmonic]

This is me elaborating on something, and again why I think it'd be a good idea. We need to open up something custom/fun/different to get more people on. Right now, we can't do what Retail does, which is offer more expansion packs due to the limitations on emulators, so what we have to do is something that will allow for us to expand on our own custom lore/classes/what have you.

I think we could do that through this. I know, people do it on retail anyways, but to be honest---Retail has millions upon millions of people. They do something right, and I think a big part of that is people playing what they want.

As has been stated, there's many things that keep this in check and preserve quality--- there still would have to be an approved profile, and people that join go through the application process, so it's not as if we will devolve if we let people do something like this, it will just be a pretty big change.

And change can be scary, but super, super fun if we let it be.

[Grakor456]

I'd rather have high elves playable.

Technically, they've always been possible. You just need to CMC it and get it approved.

[Aethon]

I'd rather have high elves playable.

I'd rather have high elves playable.

I'd rather have high elves playable.

So much of this. PLEASE.

[Sorum]

I'd rather have high elves playable.

Technically, they've always been possible. You just need to CMC it and get it approved.

Technically, yes. But CMCs are not given constantly, and there is a set number of active CMCs at a time (they are all inactive anyway /cough). Which means that making a high elf would be.. a bit difficult or not really possible. A decent idea I can come up with right now would be adding high elves as special profiles. It will filter out everything and you won't see high elves everywhere.