The Problem of Prestiges

[Wuvvums]

It is, and we have, which is why to suggest that this is Grakor's problem outright ignores the rest of us and our discussion.

[Duraza]

Honestly... At this point guys. I think it would be helpful if you're feeling frustrated about this to just take a step back for a moment and let yourself relax. I'll admit, yesterday night I read this, got pretty irritated and posted exactly what I still mean. Then today, after convincing myself not to post, I spent the day away from WoW, chilled with a friend and just did nothing.

Now coming back to this whole thing, I still don't disagree with myself. But I realize I'm also set in my own ways. I almost refuse to believe I'm wrong. I can bet a lot of people are the same here... (Not trying to point fingers).

In the end... if the system goes well that sucks. But at least the stories still aren't. And I really hope those who are writing a prestige post continue to write for the time being because I'd love to read. I'm pretty proud of what I wrote and accomplished with the system and I do hope to see people continue to use it (and use it to write great stories and better rpz, not for power) until the day it goes. And as for my own prestige... I figure I might as well spend the time I've got with him (however much that may be) trying to prove they are some good and positive to rp (whether anyone ends up changing their mind or not).

[Roxas65]

I agree with the first part of Duraza's post. Feeling irritated? Step away from the computer, make a sandwich, go outside for a walk, find a pretty meadow or something, sit down, eat sandwich and listen to dem birds. Stuff will still suck, but I guarantee you'll feel better about them.

[Aphetoros]

It is, and we have, which is why to suggest that this is Grakor's problem outright ignores the rest of us and our discussion.

Well apparently that has some effect on it because more "we want prestiges" than agreement has come out of this thread.

Whatever, I'm done posting.







Do whatever the -Censored by the internet police of Princess Celestia. Have a magical day, citizens- ya want.

:l

[Roxas65]

Do whatever the -Censored by the internet police of Princess Celestia. Have a magical day, citizens- ya want.

:l

Carry on, obedient citizen.

[Zarquon]

You are wrong,

This is not a discussion. This is an announcement, an absolute statement by Grakor saying that the Prestige System will be taken down [at a point in time in the future]. A decision. A decision is made based on a plethora of problems followed by a suggested resolution and the execution of a resolution.

This is the resolution suggested by Grakor. Thus, the only time when you can say that he is NOT disconnected from the community is if his problems are our problems. If his problems listed are our problems pointed out, then we are connected. The opposite is true.

My argument is that he is disconnected from the player base because those that agree that the Prestige System is bad give reasons not provided when Grakor justified his decision. My argument is that he is disconnected from the player base because those that disagree that the Prestige System is bad gives reasons why it is good and these factors were not considered, respected or -refuted-.

Please note: I am trivializing your opinions for the fundamental reason that Grakor gave a decision. The Prestige Systems are going down. He then give his own series of problems as to that decision. Your opinions are invalid, unless he stated them as the rationale behind his decision. Your opinions are valid if he agrees and listed them down as the rationales behind his decision. If he agrees with you but did not list them down earlier means that he is obviously disconnected from you, the player base, because he did not open up a discussion earlier.

Note. This is not a discussion. He made a decision. Note the crux of the player base's irritation.

Now, all that I have stated above is a logical and mathematical dissection of the fundamental basis of my stance. My stance being that the decision was disconnected from the situation, fueled by the opinions of one person, in enacting a decision that applied to many others, without solid and firm reasonings.

These are the reasonings he provided, along with my refutes.

The Problems With Prestiges

1. Prestiges can kill RP as often, if not more often, than they create it.

When the system was put in, it was thought that prestiges would, essentially, create new RP for folks and give them something to work towards. Moreso than that, however, it was a hope that prestiges would spark interesting RP both during the training process and after the training process. That hope. however, ended up falling flat.

An absolute statement along the lines of, "ALL prestige falls. ALL prestige did not create new RP. ALL prestige's hopes fall flat." Untrue. All I need is one example to say that a Prestige benefited RP in Prologue, and it is enough. The truth is that SOME prestige gets abused, SOME prestige failed, SOME players failed. Your suggestion is to remove ALL. This is an absolute statement because it suggests and demeans the Positivity of the Prestige System in favor of the negativity.

I can't count the number of times I've seen arena tournaments or other PvP events ruined due to the presence of a Myrmidon/Gladiator prestige stealing the spotlight. I can't count the number of times I've seen people complain about the power of prestiges and get turned off from an RP because of that. Because prestiges are intended to be more powerful than normal characters, they get a free pass to walk over others during events and it's not fun for anyone involved. This can cause a lot of friction between players.

Yet on the other hand, I have seen arena tournaments or other PvP events bolstered and made more interesting due to the presence of a Prestige. I have seen non-Prestige stealing the spotlight as well. In fact, once -anybody- steals the spotlight, somebody will be unhappy because he really wants it instead and hence decide to target prestige for his complaints. Friction in Player VS Player. . .I don't know, I am sure there is a solution for that. Regardless, this is once again an opinionated and absolute statement; again, there are plus points just like there are minus points.

Prestiges were meant to be awe inspiring to a limited degree, but this happened not because of the character's accomplishments, but because of a roll bonus. Prestige characters often weren't given any respect, nor were most prestige characters responsible for creating RP on the server. Instead...

Take away the roll bonus. And I guess I am the minority who respects Prestige Characters. Or maybe I am just lucky enough to RP with the right prestige characters. Honestly, there are some who don't give two silver coins of care about roll bonuses, and some who keeps bugging people about it. You know which doesn't deserve it. Just take it away completely.

2. Prestiges were taken for reasons of power, not character development.

Let's be honest: prestiges are nice because people like roll bonuses. People like being special and important. Some prestiges were used to further characters, but most of the time it was a bid for power and little more.

Take away the roll bonuses.

Aside from that power, the prestige system does nothing that couldn't be done with a personal storyline. Who plays an apprentice who, over time and through a trying quest, becomes a full Mage? No prestiges involved, and you'd have essentially the same story. The only exception to this were certain prestiges that served as vehicles for storytelling, Dragonsworn being the obvious example. Even then, I think many people tried to go Dragonsworn as a default, not for the RP possibilities.

I don't understand why people bother climbing the Himalayas. Just climb. . .I don't know, some hills in France? I mean, it is still climbing. . .On a more serious note, a very simple experiment: draft out what storyline would fit an apprentice Mage and what storyline would fit a budding Felsworn, note the differences.

3. Prestiges do not make sense given WoW's class system.

I've mentioned this before. Many of the prestiges we used in the past were d20 transfers...even if we changed the titles to be something different from the d20's interpretation, many of them simply don't make sense in the current scheme of things. If we removed them, then what's the point?

I guess you can always just leave them alone.

WoW Shaman are a combination of orc shaman, troll witch doctors, and tauren spirit walkers.

WoW Hunters who spec Beastmastery might as well be beast masters, those that spec Marksmanship are essentially dead shots.

WoW Fury Warriors are berserkers and/or bone crushers, WoW Arms Warriors by default have the most iconic blademaster skill.

The list goes on.

WoW's classes were never meant to advance in this manner.

I don't understand this point, to be very honest with you. What you effectively said is that we are as powerful if not more than Prestiges. If we are, then it only suggest that the Prestige System is not only imbalanced, it is pretty damn cool as people are writing so much on adding the talent points to the right tree. If we are not, then it once again justifies why the Prestige System exists; it is different. Point is, it is either different, or it is not.

4. Prestiges are rigid.

The recent system in particular was given flak for being *too defined*. Titles in general, as long as we're drawing them from the d20 or any other limited source, will remain very limited in terms of customization.

This seems like a non-issue to me. The ones making this complaint will logically be those with Prestige themselves or are aiming for prestige.

. . .if you are one of those who thinks that problems have solutions, then telling someone who has an ache in his arm to cut off his arm doesn't solve the problem. So this problem is pretty flimsy.

Maybe my refutes doesn't convince you entirely. But my refutes exist. This means that each of these rationales Grakor listed is debatable. It is flimsy, arguable, and hence does not form a solid or good basis for such a decision.

In conclusion, my argument is very simple: the decision is flawed.

Honestly, he should have opened an actual discussion before announcing that Prestige System is going down. Then he might have prove more convincing, instead of the current situation where I personally feel that the community is immensely divided. And what Apethoras said.

I am sorry if I don't come off as 'friendly' and I can only extend my sincerest of apologies in that case. Yet how friendly or unfriendly I am is pretty subjective to which side you are on, so in this debate, I am sorry but to say that I can only try, but probably not succeed perfectly.

Still, if I am considered friendly for doing this, then assume that I posted a kitten here and read my post in a cute, kitty voice. Or something. Whatever floats thy boat.

[Brutalskars]

I salute you Zarquon, a mighty brother in arms. Your bravery and skill only matched by Ares himself.

[Rigley]

EDIT: Forget it. Twisting words is alright, but simplifying them is not.

[Binkleheimer]

>.>
I don't think I said anyone was wrong.
Just saying it really won't affect me.

Until now. You are wrong, Rigley. :P

[Rigley]

Forgive me, I was simply grabbing names from different sides of the argument. If I used your name and you find it improper, then my apologies.

EDIT: perhaps people of different opinions is a more palatable way to word it.

[Aphetoros]

...

Don't ever put words in my mouth again.

Yes, that was blunt. But that is probably my biggest pet peeve ever.

Thank you! <3

edit: Managed to post before me, but still...

*hiss*

[Rigley]

...

Don't ever put words in my mouth again.

Yes, that was blunt. But that is probably my biggest pet peeve ever.

Thank you! <3

edit: Managed to post before me, but still...

*hiss*

I apologize, but are you intending to say that you don't disagree with Grakor's notion being wrong?

'Cause... it seems that's the complete opposite of everything you've said thus far.

Meh. I get the idea.

[Aphetoros]

I disagree with what he wants, but it's not my decision and I've accepted it.

[Reese]

I disagree with what he wants, but it's not my decision and I've accepted it.

[Brutalskars]

I disagree with the concieved notion of my full disagreement. I did not say a wipe is wrong, I did not say Grakor/GM team must burn at a stake. I simply disagree with the notions against Prestiges, but most of all, I disagree with the idea that disagreements mean dissention. If someone doesn't like what you do, alright, and as Cressy said, It is indeed your guys' server, you have the final call. Just be ready for whiplash, even if it seems unreasonable to you.

I do not hate any of you, sometimes I just hate what you do.