Worgen Death Knights, and True Form

[Harmonic]

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7739834264


I'll say this right now. Worgen Deathknights are sort of a boon, love the idea of playing a worgen from the cult of Arugal, not so fond of the idea that they can't use two forms, one of the spells they start out with. I was looking at this interesting topic, since it's hard to find anything firm on the subject.

Basically, this person draws a conclusion. Despite there being no ritual of the water available to Death Knight Worgen, they've -already- been given control over their human intelligence and fortitude by the Lich King, suggesting that this is how they control their forms. Basically, instead of the ritual of the water giving these guys their forms, the LICH KING himself did so, simply because having a completely feral undead worgen wouldn't be something that'd be as useful as a sentient creature that has a grip on their human side as well.



So... CoTH, what's the standpoint here? Has this been brought up before? What are your thoughts?

[Thoradin]

I still think Worgen DK's are an abomination of the Lore.

That being said, I think they should be able to switch back and forth.

[c0rzilla]

Unfortunately, the conclusion she draws is incorrect. Here's why--

Rendering a worgen sane, either by serum or Lich King mind control, only renders them sane. Neither grants them the balance needed to attain human form. They're two different things. The point of the water ritual is finding a key balance between their emotions. That's what gives them their human form. Just because you're sane, doesn't mean you have that balance. While Death Knights do have their faculties, they're driven by so many dark things, it's hard to imagine they can attain that. As well...they're dead. Dead things cannot change, besides rotting. Undead are stuck in a physical stasis, it's why they don't age. Another point, is that the curse is druidic in origin. Death Knights do not have the connection to nature living entities do.

So...yeah. Interesting, but incorrect.

[Harmonic]

Ack.

Is there a way for Kretol to remove that ability then? Because I tell you, it's very tempting to try to find a way to get away with a DK that can shift, since that ability is there. It's misleading and such, too.

[c0rzilla]

Eh, I don't see the point in removal. We do have a general policy of "if it's in your spellbook, you can use it", but if you're going to roll a worgen Death Knight, you should know the lore enough to not click the shiny button.

[Reigen]

Worgen Death Knights are allowed to shift forms.

[Dug]

Is it okay for us to say they lost that ability?

[Harmonic]

Worgen death knights are entirely of their own minds once freed, the bestial instincts having been shattered by the Lich King's will and their self-control having been restored after the Battle for Light's Hope Chapel. The result is similar to a worgen who has drank from the wells of the Wild Home

Reigen sent me this! Seems there is lore backing this up.

[Reigen]

I could see a death knight of all things going though enough trama that they forget or are full of such regret and guilt that they cannot shift back. [In response to Dug]

[c0rzilla]

There is still the issue of them being dead. Dead things are in a physical stasis, frozen in the form they died in (unless mutated, like the san'layn). Why is an exception made here? As well, "self control" is different than having the balance to change forms. The results might be similar to drinking from the wells, but similar is not exactly the same.

If this is a decision to make things even and fair among all worgen players...forgive me, but that's a smidge silly. Every class has certain restrictions and drawbacks.

I'm not seeing much, if any lore to support this.

[Memnoch]

If this is a decision to make things even and fair among all worgen players...forgive me, but that's a smidge silly. Every class has certain restrictions and drawbacks.

I'm not seeing much, if any lore to support this.

Actually, I agree with C0r on this one. If this is simply allowing it because they have the button, and the reasoning is that Blizzard would have taken it out if it weren't in tune with lore, there's two problems with that. The first is that they -are-, after all, selling a game and out to make money. The argument from the masses (many of which don't care a lick about lore) would be, "But I'm a WORGEN! Why CAN'T I switch forms like all the others!" and they might lose significant revenue. There's more to that point, but that's the basis. The second one is that there's a coding problem. Worgen are their own race, and to remove a racial ability from only one single class might be enough of a coding nightmare to let it be. Maybe not, but I'm trying to stay open-minded.

As far as C0r's comment about little, if any lore supporting the idea, there's bound to be someone coming along and saying there's a little, and that should be enough...however, there's a little bit of lore supporting that some humans can become druids. Right off the bat are Gilneans. What if we wanted to play a Harvest Witch who managed not to get cursed, and still secured the teachings of the Night Elf druids? Highly plausible, not allowed: human's can't become druids, it's not a clickable class on their character selection screen.

So all-in-all, I'm pretty certain that a Worgen Death Knight should -not- be allowed to shift; at least, if I were to play one, I wouldn't be hitting that "shiny button"

[Nikodemos]

I would pose the question as to whether this inquiry has been broached by the staff in regards to a standard policy? What we all think is well and good, but we can argue over lore speculation until this gets nasty and the thread is inevitably closed. I would also note that I'm proud this has not gotten nasty yet. Good job people!

---

Additionally, it is a valuable addition to include links to actual resources when discussing any inconsistency in lore. This is something to keep in mind during any such discussion.

[Grakor456]

I would pose the question as to whether this inquiry has been broached by the staff in regards to a standard policy?

This falls under the "if it's in your spellbook, you can do it" general guideline we've kept to before. It's come up and that's how we filed it.

While it's true that there's little lore explicitly stating that worgen DKs can shift forms, there's also little lore explicitly stating that they can't. This means that it comes down to personal opinion on beliefs of what makes sense: some people think it's only logical that they can't, some think it's entirely logical that they can. It's down to interpretation, and everyone is going to have a different one of those (remember all those debates on whether DKs are always undead and to what extent they are undead? Those debates still rage to this day.)

So, in cases like this, we try to err on the side of what the game shows us. Since Worgen DKs have Two Forms, they can shift. It is at least within the realm of possibility that if Arthas could have given them their sanity, he could have given them the ability to shift as well. Silly? Perhaps, but Warcraft is a setting full of pop culture references and jokes. I think we can afford to be a little silly now and then.

[Xigo]

Should we really stick with the 'if it's in your spellbook' policy when some GM members are so adamantly against the use of Time Warp as an IC spell?

[Reigen]

There is a difference between 'removing' a skill and altering what it does, I will point out. [There's also a spot for discussing that, Xigo, if you wish. That's sort of it's intended use!]