The Light and How to Swing It...

[Piken]

Not to be off topic.. But Krent, I love reading what you say. Just wanted to throw that out there! Love the discussion and such, didn't mean to de-rail! Just felt that needed to be said. Same goes to everyone else. Very nice debate. I voiced my opinion, though, so yeah.

Viva La Resistance!

[Einhander]

Hmm.. If the light is so easy to manipulate in terms of "being a zealot", why are there no orc or tauren paladin?

[Kaghuros]

Hmm.. If the light is so easy to manipulate in terms of "being a zealot", why are there no orc or tauren paladin?

They don't even believe in it, they have an entirely different religious background just like Night Elves (They all believe the Light doesn't exist, and that true power comes from gods/ancestors/etc.). At any rate, Orcs can't doubly due to their Fel taint.

[rentreality]

This debate will go on ad infinitum. I think we can all agree, however, that should a Human Paladin commit evil acts such as rape or murder, and be identified as committing them, he would have a lynch mob and a band of Church witch-hunter paladins on his rear so fast his head would spin.

[Nostra]

Orcs can't doubly due to their Fel taint.

I don´t think that would affect it much actually, look at the Blood Elves, if a fel taint would stop light-wielding wouldn´t they be limited from it?

[Kaghuros]

Ah, you're right. I forgot about those Elves.

[Theik]

The Horde doesn't generally follow the Holy Light because they already have their own believes. They prefer shamanism over a philosophical belief in the three virtues. That doesn't mean other races can't follow the light and learn to channel the light if they're devoted enough. See Zabra Hexx, for example. I don't think there's anything preventing an orc from becoming a paladin, but what are the odds of one actually interesting themselves in the tree virtues?

[rentreality]

And what happens when the "Legitimate Authority" is wrong? What happens when the Kingdom orders a paladin to slaughter innocents who might threaten the social hierarchy (Perhaps through radical political ideals) but have done no crime? What happens when the inevitable threads of corruption enter into the commanding powers that hold authority over the Paladin?

Something was bothering me about this statement, and I suddenly realized what it was: if they are corrupt and ordering strikes on innocents like you suggest, they are no longer legitimate authority, and the Paladin is free to act against them without reparation or retaliation.

This was proved at Stratholme in a way: Prince Arthas ordered the civilians killed, and even though the Paladins refused to recognize his authority, it was not legitimate authority, so their powers were not revoked.

[Harmonic]

And what happens when the "Legitimate Authority" is wrong? What happens when the Kingdom orders a paladin to slaughter innocents who might threaten the social hierarchy (Perhaps through radical political ideals) but have done no crime? What happens when the inevitable threads of corruption enter into the commanding powers that hold authority over the Paladin?

Something was bothering me about this statement, and I suddenly realized what it was: if they are corrupt and ordering strikes on innocents like you suggest, they are no longer legitimate authority, and the Paladin is free to act against them without reparation or retaliation.

This was proved at Stratholme in a way: Prince Arthas ordered the civilians killed, and even though the Paladins refused to recognize his authority, it was not legitimate authority, so their powers were not revoked.

But... what about in terms of the Scarlet Crusade?

[rentreality]

As I mentioned before, the Scarlet Crusade's legitimate authority -- the Scarlet Council, or whatever it is they have -- condones the murder of innocents on the off-chance that they're actually infected with the Plague. Thus, the Scarlet paladins view their actions as good in the overall scope of things for helping get rid of the Scourge and its influence, and their legitimate authority agrees.

[Harmonic]

Then it's exactly like how Krent said. The way they go about it is horrendious, however, they find it justifiable. Whether it is legitimate or not is actually a mute point, because what is up for discussion is the Alignment of a Paladin.

Now, lets say someone was to roll a Scarlet Crusader. Would you roll them as Lawful Good? Because, they are following their law, and their vision of what is good. So by that reasoning, they'd be Lawful Good, right?

[Kaelvan]

The Scarlet Crusaders themselves view them, and each other as Lawful Good, but if rolled it would be Lawful Evil. They do follow their laws. But the rest would most likely view them as Evil.

[rentreality]

The nigh-universal moral code that says that murder, rape, torture, and maiming are bad would say that they would be Lawful Evil, yes. EDIT: And from what I've seen, the alignment axis is based upon this more or less universal moral code, as opposed to an individual's personal morality.

[Hawk]

To be honest, I believe it's just about doing what you think is right. As Krent said (and very well I might add), there has been events that are evil to some but glorious to others.

Also, if you willingly and knowingly do an evil act (that's evil to -yourself-), then it's safe to say the Light won't help you out anymore.

This is all I have to say. Carry on.

EDIT: Unless it's a case of the person overreacting. E.g. he accidentally bumped into an old lady and he believes it to be a sin.

[Krent]

This debate will go on ad infinitum. I think we can all agree, however, that should a Human Paladin commit evil acts such as rape or murder, and be identified as committing them, he would have a lynch mob and a band of Church witch-hunter paladins on his rear so fast his head would spin.

This I can agree with. A paladin affiliated with the Silver Hand who goes out of bounds either by his own personal creed or by the orders of some corrupt commander should be hunted down by the Church. What I can't agree with is the notion of this Paladin losing all of his abilities instantly because of this, even though in his warped perception he's working towards his notion of a "Greater Good".

The nigh-universal moral code that says that murder, rape, torture, and maiming are bad would say that they would be Lawful Evil, yes. EDIT: And from what I've seen, the alignment axis is based upon this more or less universal moral code, as opposed to an individual's personal morality.

That's the problems with alignments, though. COTH GM's, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we "borrow" the alignments and put them into our character profiles just so the general population would have an easier understanding of how a character acts?

*edit* After looking it up on the wiki it does seem the original Warcraft RPG did feature alignments. However, unlike the Dungeons and Dragons codex, it does not specifically state that the forces of Good and Evil are solid, physical forces that hold a clear definition in the world. D&D specifically stated that Good and Evil are not matters of perspective. Hence why the alignments and definitions of "Good 'n Evil" are so clearly defined in that universe.

The Warcraft RPG, and the entire storyline in general, is filled with moments where good and evil were completely perspective. Just to use the "Arthas slaughterin' all the peoplez 'cause of bad bread" (Because it seems popular) one could develop a thesis saying that Arthas was morally just in his actions. Though one village of innocents might have to be executed, it would serve to protect the kingdom from sharing the same fate. Trade the lives of few to save the lives of many (which of course we all know didn't exactly work once Arthas got his nifty sword but....yeah).

This would essentially render a "nigh-universal moral code" useless as every act, no matter what the circumstances, an argument could be cooked up labeling it differently depending on the perspective taken by the viewer. And, unlike DnD lore, there's nothing that rigidly says "This is what Good is" and "This is what Evil is".