Conquest of the Horde

This is my opinion on the matter

So. I noticed that there was a thread on living Death Knights. The topic itself is way too old for me to go around and necro (hah, pun) so I figured I'd make a new one for me to get a few points across. Hopefully it might contribute to the topic and shed some light on a few matters. I did read the thread and some of these points were already mentioned in various posts, while others I've collected from lore sources around the web and I just sort of put all of this together in one post, so you didn't have to search through hundreds just to get the info.

First off, let's start with the DK generations, just so you get a basic grasp of what they all stand for and whatnot.

1. First Gen
First generation Death Knights were created by Gul'dan, who used his witchcraft and all that to instill the souls of Orcish warriors into the bodies of fallen Alliance. They were given magical prowess by their creator. And really, they have nothing to do with the Scourge, they are just a way for the Gul'dan's guys to bolster their forces when they went on their various killing sprees.
These will not be covered below, since they aren't playable in World of Warcraft.

2. Second Gen
Second generation Death Knights, the most powerful type currently created (including Arthas in that number) are created from fallen Paladins who have been either slain by the Scourge and raised, or had their soul taken away from them by Frostmourne (again, including Arthas in that number). All of them are pretty powerful, most 2nd Gen are like mini-Arthases. They have immense necromantic prowess and can raise a lot of undead minions. But keep in mind that all of their power lies in their runeblade. Each of them are bound to it and without it, they are powerless.

3. Third Gen
Third generation DKs were created by Arthas himself to serve both as expendable cannonfodder to protect Acherus from the Scarlets and as a shock troop force sent at Light's Hope to lure Tirion out. These are the Death Knights that are playable in the retail version of WoW. These are the Death Knights for which the entire Archerus zone is all about. If you've played the starting DK zone, you'd know how they're made. If not, they are simply killed and raised, given a shabby runeblade and some old patched up armor and sent to fight. They are less powerful than 2nd Gen, but are also less dependent on their runeblade, since their primary function is to cleave in half and fight until they are taken down.


For 2nd Gen.
This is arguably the only variation of Death Knight that can be theorized as "possibly living". But through various lore sources, Blizzard have made it explicitly clear that a DK cannot be alive. Here are just a few examples.

a) Saronite
Saronite is the blood of Yogg-Saron. It drives any mortal man insane. Keep in mind that Yogg-Saron himself is an Old God, has nothing to do with the Lich King and if any of his minions were living, the usage of Saronite would make them turn against their master. Just so Yoggie can have a few laughs, because Old Gods have no allegiance - they just want to kill stuff. The fact that Saronite has no effect on any DKs means that they're dead. A lot of people say it's "The Lich King's will that binds them to his servitude" but even if it was that, let's think this over.

Who do you think has a stronger dominance. A former pawn of the Legion, or an Old God?

b) Necromancy
It has been said various times, both in the Scholomance quest chains and in various lore sources all over, that necromancy methodically eats away at a person's mortality. The more it is used, the less "alive" you are. And 2nd Gen use excess necromantic magic, plus a runeblade. Even if by some amazing feat, they were alive when they started their servitude to the Lich King, necromancy would slowly eat away at that until they are undead in a matter of months.

c) Frostmourne
Like we said, there are two ways to become a 2nd Gen. Either you were a powerful paladin who fell and got raised, or you were corrupted. The latter is the biggest argument people use to justify their Death Knight being alive. They say "My Death Knight is a 2nd Gen who was corrupted during the WCIII-era" But what they fail to realize, and this aspect is recurring in Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos, is that the mere act of "being corrupted" means Arthas himself assimilated you into his pack. What this means is that he used Frostmourne to rip your very soul out of your body. No soul = no life. Think that's pretty obvious.



3rd Gen
This requires no explanation. 3rd Gen DKs were killed and raised. There's no real way around that, they're exclusively dead. They were never picked for their allegiance, former profession or anything. Arthas just needed bodies, so he rose every regular Jack and Jill.



Additionally, please read this
It's from the World of Warcraft forums. Pretty useful. Disregard certain aspects that apply to Retail only, such as "you are a third gen" and you can extract some valuable info from that thread, which I haven't covered here.

To give you the quick answer to your question there at the bottom; No. Living Death Knights are no longer supported.

I like what you put down here, regardless.

They're not legit and will he kicked since they're not allowed to be RPed here on CotH.

... Though personally I'd be a sucker for the story of a DK working hard to become alive again (like my own Kirolan, though he will never succeed). To have a success story, as far fetched as it would be, would probably make me go "D'aaw" on the inside. Regardless of that, I can't think of a single logical way to bring a DK back to life. I'm sorta on the fence with it personally. Great for a story, bad for my logic.

The simple way to say it is that we play Third Generation Death Knights and everything you mentioned is basically right.

Since my question's been answered, I removed the bottom part and this can remain as a handy protip if anyone's ever wondering why DKs are dead.
Like a lore guide of sorts.

Thanks for the answers. Hope this thread helped more than it bothered.


Also, what Sachiko mentioned is actually a very good story element that is underplayed in not just DKs, but in every undead character in general. Everyone is all "kill maim burn im so undead", but completely downplay the actual suffering of an undead in lieu of looking badass. And while most emotions are forcefully ripped from Death Knights and lost in Forsaken, the mere fact that they have their conscience and a logically thinking mind means they can't not question what it would be like if they were still living. So even if they have an inherited compulsive urge to bring death and suffering, any Death Knight, or at least a small part in the back of their mind, would long to be alive again. So I support that notion, even if it's a technical impossibility for the character to succeed.

I was always under the impression that it was possible for there to be "Living" Death Knights, and that ALL second-generation Death Knights were 'living'. However, they lose all connection to the light when they exchange their souls for immortality, effectively making them "Dead" without actually having died. And in the case of third-generation Death Knights, the magic used in their creation is more of a resurrection than mere reanimation - the body is restored to the point it no longer decays (Unless, as in the case of the Forsaken, it's already rotting. Even then, I think much of the rot stops). In the case of Death Knights, I see them as "Spiritually dead, but physically alive". However, the Frost and Unholy specs might 'kill' their bodies - or it might not, making their forms in contrast to the powers they wield, sort of like "The eye of the storm".

The 'physically alive' part gives them much greater strength and willpower. And I'd say the "No free will" isn't like complete mind-micromanagement as it is a twisting of the person's mind to align with the goals of the Lich King - something they don't really notice until it's been broken.

So, what I'm saying about "Alive or Dead?" - as far as Holy Light and Death Coil are concerned, they're all dead. But by almost any other means, they're considered alive. That said, Blood Death Knights are definitely Warcraft's Dracula-type Vampires.

And is their ANY real difference between Second and Third generation Death Knights beyond the time of their creation? I think third generation DKs are treated as 'inferior' because they're more numorous... but the only reason for that is more aggressive talent-seeking, not reduced standards. The runeblade they're given isn't "shabby" - it's been tempered by war, death, and bloodshed (Being a battle-worn blade makes it stronger, not weaker, because of the Heroic Principal). And the armor is the best Acherus has to offer - and Acherus exceeds even Naxxramas in terms of available equipment, troop deployments, and military power.

As far as "Which is Stronger, an Old God or Former Servant of the Legion"... well, considering the Legion's power defies entire planes (Azeroth's Old Gods have nothing on Sargaras or Kil'Jaedin), and Ner'zhul was strong enough to defy them... I'd say that Yog-Saron's not all he's chalked up to be. This is a Heroic Fantasy world, not cosmic horror (The difference between them, despite having all the same elements, is that in the latter "Conan sends the horror packing")

Actually, there's a large difference between 2nd and 3rd Gen DKs, spanning far beyond just their time of creation and numbers. 2nd Gen were mostly exclusively made by Arthas, or were made in significantly close proximity to him. While the 3rd Gen were mainly made by those same 2nd Gen and the necromancers of Acherus. If Arthas' power was, say, compared to a supercomputer that had 1TB of RAM. Each 2nd Gen has about 512MB RAM allocated to them, while 3rd Gens have about 56MB each. That's because a person can't create something that is superior to themselves. In short, 3rd Gen were never raised to be powerful, they were raised to be plentiful. That's why they aren't powerful.

And also this...

Quote:However, they lose all connection to the light when they exchange their souls for immortality, effectively making them "Dead" without actually having died.

...is a matter I want to address. See, it has been established that necromancy kills you, but keeps you animated. Not in the figurative "dead inside" way, the literal way. And even if that factor wasn't present, we established the fact that 2nd Gen are made through force, with at least some help from Frostmourne. I think it's implied, heavily, that when your soul is torn from your very body. You die. In a very literal sense. When you become Arthas' servant, you are literally a walking corpse. You don't need to eat, breathe, you don't need blood to function. Why would Arthas build supersoldiers that have mortal weaknesses? That need food to function? That die when they bleed too much? It defies the purpose of the scourge in general. 2nd Gen are, from the lore sources Blizzard gave us, just as dead as 3rd Gen. Even if the process of a person becoming one isn't as meticulous as being killed and raised, the mere act of your soul escaping you renders you dead.

I made this thread because I'm new and all I really wanted to know was whether the aforementioned logic applied to CoTH, since I saw a thread discussing the possibility of living DKs and got curious. And upon hearing some answers, I can say that it does. Which pleases me, actually.

I'm all for custom lore and all that. The server I come from was full of close-minded idiots that thought lore is a static feature and we should just RP exactly as Blizzard tells us to, without introducing anything unique whatsoever. But even then, living, breathing DKs are too far-fetched for my tastes.

(11-06-2012, 08:26 AM)Flawless Wrote: [ -> ]And even if that factor wasn't present, we established the fact that 2nd Gen are made through force, with at least some help from Frostmourne.

I'd like to note Baron Rivendare here who was never killed by Frostmourne. He was, according to WoWwiki, corrupted by Kel'thuzad and his plague and fell under the Scourge's power that way. Serving The Lich King loyally made him into the Death Knight he is today. For all intents and purposes, he's still alive were it not for the necromancy he tends to use more often than not (so, yes, he's dead but he never officially died to a sword).

Baron Rivendare would also be a point that not all second generation Death Knights are paladins since he was just a wealthy landowner before the Scourge.

Otherwise, I do seem to agree with the posts made.

The way I usually play my Death Knights is that even though they're dead physically, they're very much alive mentally. Theyre open for different personalities, methods of thinking, and have their own unique style of fighting. So to me, even though they're walking corpses, they're not entirely dead. Otherwise they'd just be mindless NPC ghouls.

The Death Knights are by far my favorite class and I usually spend a lot of time trying to study them. I've been working on a guide for them that I've never fully finishe due to constantly changing CotH policy.

(11-06-2012, 08:26 AM)Flawless Wrote: [ -> ]Actually, there's a large difference between 2nd and 3rd Gen DKs, spanning far beyond just their time of creation and numbers. 2nd Gen were mostly exclusively made by Arthas, or were made in significantly close proximity to him. While the 3rd Gen were mainly made by those same 2nd Gen and the necromancers of Acherus. If Arthas' power was, say, compared to a supercomputer that had 1TB of RAM. Each 2nd Gen has about 512MB RAM allocated to them, while 3rd Gens have about 56MB each. That's because a person can't create something that is superior to themselves. In short, 3rd Gen were never raised to be powerful, they were raised to be plentiful. That's why they aren't powerful.

Actually, they were made to be powerful AND Plentiful. Plentiful because that's what was needed. Powerful because that's the whole point of a Death Knight. And the 3rd-generation DKs WERE created by The Lich King himself, even though he wasn't necessarily there at the time. It's why Ner'zhul was such a great threat to the world, and something I feel a lot of people have trouble grasping. "Yes, he's creating new Death Knights from the bodies of our best warriors. Yes, they are almost as powerful as he was before he mantled Ner'Zhul. And yes, there are hundreds of them, all converging on a single point." People like to underplay the scale of that display of power WAY too much.

Quote:And also this...

Quote:However, they lose all connection to the light when they exchange their souls for immortality, effectively making them "Dead" without actually having died.

...is a matter I want to address. See, it has been established that necromancy kills you, but keeps you animated. Not in the figurative "dead inside" way, the literal way. And even if that factor wasn't present, we established the fact that 2nd Gen are made through force, with at least some help from Frostmourne. I think it's implied, heavily, that when your soul is torn from your very body. You die. In a very literal sense. When you become Arthas' servant, you are literally a walking corpse. You don't need to eat, breathe, you don't need blood to function. Why would Arthas build supersoldiers that have mortal weaknesses? That need food to function? That die when they bleed too much? It defies the purpose of the scourge in general. 2nd Gen are, from the lore sources Blizzard gave us, just as dead as 3rd Gen. Even if the process of a person becoming one isn't as meticulous as being killed and raised, the mere act of your soul escaping you renders you dead.

I made this thread because I'm new and all I really wanted to know was whether the aforementioned logic applied to CoTH, since I saw a thread discussing the possibility of living DKs and got curious. And upon hearing some answers, I can say that it does. Which pleases me, actually.

I'm all for custom lore and all that. The server I come from was full of close-minded idiots that thought lore is a static feature and we should just RP exactly as Blizzard tells us to, without introducing anything unique whatsoever. But even then, living, breathing DKs are too far-fetched for my tastes.

Neither Kel'Thuzad nor the other Necromancers, nor the Necrolytes of the First War were dead (Until Arthas killed Kel'Thuzad). I want to know the source for Second-generation Death Knights being made through force. In fact, it's impossible for Arthas to have made them, since he was a Knight of the Silver Hand when they were first being made. When he ascended to the throne of Lordaeron, many of its nobles willingly defected to the Scourge to become second-generation Death Knights. Arthas himself is a Second-generation Death Knight.

And the reason they'd have 'mortal weakness' is because it also comes with 'mortal strength' - And they shed a lot of mortal weakness', such as aging and the need for food and drink. Also, being 'alive' protects them from suffering from 'undead weakness' - Gradual rot and decay, and the ability of Paladins to just mow through them almost effortlessly. If the scourge hadn't been bolstered by 'living' members such as the Cult of the Damned and Death Knights, the Knights of the Silver Hand could have held them off indefinitely.

Miswording on my behalf. Sorry. Second Gen were not made by Arthas, they were made in roughly the same manner as Arthas.
And Arthas is very much undead.

They were made by the Lich King, who had not yet merged with Arthas. And actually made Arthas into a Second gen.

Source: Wowpedia Article

(11-06-2012, 12:01 AM)SachikoMaeda Wrote: [ -> ]They're not legit and will he kicked since they're not allowed to be RPed here on CotH.

... Though personally I'd be a sucker for the story of a DK working hard to become alive again (like my own Kirolan, though he will never succeed). To have a success story, as far fetched as it would be, would probably make me go "D'aaw" on the inside. Regardless of that, I can't think of a single logical way to bring a DK back to life. I'm sorta on the fence with it personally. Great for a story, bad for my logic.

Something like this....

(11-05-2012, 11:14 PM)Loxmardin Wrote: [ -> ]To give you the quick answer to your question there at the bottom; No. Living Death Knights are no longer supported.

I like what you put down here, regardless.

Yes. What's so wrong about a dead DK , to begin with? XD