Conquest of the Horde

Well, on the topic of summoning armor...

I'm not sure if it can be considered 'OP', since, well most fights are played out by rolls so it doesn't really matter. But, there is no real lore supporting armor being summoned by a Death Knight, considering Koltira (A lore character) goes to a chest to get his armor/weapon and the initiates grab their gear from the racks on the side.

As for weapons, I would think it's the same thing. As a DK, you could probably summon ice and form a weapon from that if you find yourself defenseless, but you wouldn't be able to use 90% of your abilities or form runic power. So, even if you could summon a weapon, you'd need runic power to do it and you need a runeblade to make runic power so... Yeah.

I don't think the real problem is OPness, but rather some lore support.

(06-03-2012, 08:45 AM)Spiralin Wrote: [ -> ]Well then, wouldn't it be plausible if they had their rune weapon with them?

No? I'm not sure what you're driving at, here.

I still disagree about DRW. I think people are reading too far into the text of the skill. "Summon" can mean many different things.

If I go to the top of my stairs, call my dog, and he comes running up, I've "summoned" my dog. If I have a warlock call a demon, I've "summoned" a demon. If I have a mage create water, he's "summoned" water. If I have a mage create mirror images, he's "summoned" mirror images. All "summon" means is to call something forth.

It was always clear to me that it copied your existing weapon. The weapon DRW creates always had the exact same model as your main-hand weapon.

So Is it possible to have the armor summon-able by other means? Such as arcane methods, artifacts, scrolls or whathaveyou. Basically like a scroll of recall just attached to an inanimate object?

A scroll of recall brings you a location...

I don't think an inanimate object could activate a scroll to bring itself to you. That, and the fact that the scrolls are bound to a single location where as you move around.

(06-03-2012, 08:58 AM)Grakor456 Wrote: [ -> ]

(06-03-2012, 08:45 AM)Spiralin Wrote: [ -> ]Well then, wouldn't it be plausible if they had their rune weapon with them?

No? I'm not sure what you're driving at, here.

I still disagree about DRW. I think people are reading too far into the text of the skill. "Summon" can mean many different things.

If I go to the top of my stairs, call my dog, and he comes running up, I've "summoned" my dog. If I have a warlock call a demon, I've "summoned" a demon. If I have a mage create water, he's "summoned" water. If I have a mage create mirror images, he's "summoned" mirror images. All "summon" means is to call something forth.

It was always clear to me that it copied your existing weapon. The weapon DRW creates always had the exact same model as your main-hand weapon.

I stated that since it requires runic power to use Dancing Rune Weapon, which summons a second weapon that mirrors your attacks(summon in the sense of bringing it forth from nothing but the empty space in front of you) that it would take some runic power to summon that weapon, majority of the runic power to keep it mirroring your attacks and floating about, and then the rest to send it away at the end of the spell.

Grakor, you then stated that it requires the Death Knight's rune weapon to generate runic power.

So I asked if the Death Knight only had their rune weapon, fought with the rune weapon, gained runic power. Wouldn't they then be able to summon just their armor piece by piece directly variating with how much runic power they had?

Next, one could explain that the reason the dancing rune weapon was an exact copy of the one the death knight is wielding. Is lazy coding, as it's easier to just take what is in the death knight's mainhand and make a copy of it, instead of randomly choosing one from the millions of weapons created in WoW.


I'm 'driving' at an attempt to find some form of a logical reason as to why a death knight would be able to summon their armor.

Does WoW have some sort of equivalent to the bag of holding? I don't think it'd be completely implausible to have some form of container enchanted to allow it to carry larger items. Though this does not substitute for summoning, it could potentially allow DKs (and others, for that matter) to carry their armour around without having to wear it constantly.

Just so the option's there.

I don't know if it's plausible, mind. Judging by how magic in this universe works, though, I say it should be a possibility at least.

So, about runic power. There isn't really much of a way it could be a releasable energy that comes from activating runes. While, that would make sense in most circumstances...

We have... these little guys. And... they're made of liquified skulls.

Okay guys, let's cool the calling each other out on condescension dots.

Sometimes... dots... are just.... dots...

.................

(06-03-2012, 09:24 AM)Spiralin Wrote: [ -> ]Next, one could explain that the reason the dancing rune weapon was an exact copy of the one the death knight is wielding. Is lazy coding, as it's easier to just take what is in the death knight's mainhand and make a copy of it, instead of randomly choosing one from the millions of weapons created in WoW.

That's not lazy coding at all, though. That has to be intentional, because they'd have to have coded the ability to actually look up the weapon model that the character is using and then use that model. The lazy way would have been to choose a specific weapon to use and always use that: AKA, DRW summoning up a sword of red energy or something. Doing it the way that they did it actually requires more effort, so you can't blame this on laziness.

(06-03-2012, 09:34 AM)Aphetoros Wrote: [ -> ]So, about runic power. There isn't really much of a way it could be a releasable energy that comes from activating runes. While, that would make sense in most circumstances...

We have... these little guys. And... they're made of liquified skulls.

They're magic potions. That doesn't mean that that's not how runic power works, only that there's an alternate method of getting that magical power.

The point, though, is that runic power doesn't just come from nowhere. DKs can't just call it up out of nothing.

(06-03-2012, 09:27 AM)Loxmardin Wrote: [ -> ]Does WoW have some sort of equivalent to the bag of holding? I don't think it'd be completely implausible to have some form of container enchanted to allow it to carry larger items. Though this does not substitute for summoning, it could potentially allow DKs (and others, for that matter) to carry their armour around without having to wear it constantly.

Just so the option's there.

I don't know if it's plausible, mind. Judging by how magic in this universe works, though, I say it should be a possibility at least.

Even if there was, they'd still have to take the pieces of armor, and take the time to put them on, and if someone was pulling a sword out of a bag, that would give people an appropriate response time, sort of like someone unsheathing a weapon.

(06-03-2012, 09:27 AM)Loxmardin Wrote: [ -> ]Does WoW have some sort of equivalent to the bag of holding? I don't think it'd be completely implausible to have some form of container enchanted to allow it to carry larger items. Though this does not substitute for summoning, it could potentially allow DKs (and others, for that matter) to carry their armour around without having to wear it constantly.

Just so the option's there.

I don't know if it's plausible, mind. Judging by how magic in this universe works, though, I say it should be a possibility at least.

Actually, it does. Portable Holes, which are handkerchiefs made of Ashenvale spider silk, since the spiders lived around Moonwells and became changed by them. High Elves and magi collect the silk and weave it into prtable holes. The actual Lore says...

"A portable hole is a circle of cloth woven from the silk of spider in Ashenvale influenced by the proximity of the moonwells. Strands of ether and starlight strengthen the silk. Secret groups of high elves and humans venture into the forest to harvest the silk.

Opened fully, the cloth creates a circle 6 feet in diameter, but it can fold small enough to appear as a handkerchief. When spread upon any surface, it causes an extra dimensional space 10 feet deep to come into being. The hole can be picked up by taking hold of the cloth and folding it. Either way, the entrance disappears but anything inside remains.

The only air in the hole is that which enters when the hole opens. It can sustain one Medium creature or two Small creatures for 10 minutes. The cloth does not accumulate weight."

Also, putting armor on tends to be a good equalizer, so it's none too OP. /shrug.

Hrm.

While I do think Death Knights being able to have a "ITS MORPHING TIME!" ability is a bit silly, I'm not particularly bothered by it. This is mostly because nearly 95% of all combat situations devolve into /roll fights, which are the merciless equalizer in the battlefield. In this situation, the armor-summoning is nothing more than a cosmetic perk; something flashy, but doesn't really affect how the combat situation goes. And, honestly? I'm all for flash. I love flash. Anyone who knows me knows that I favor flash and pizzazz and crazy over-the-top overly-detailed ridiculous bullshit over...everything. Why? 'Cause reality sucks, that's why!

That being said, there are those 5% instances of trust-fighting. And that's a whole different beast than anything else. When trust-fighting, its assumed that the players engaging in that style trust each other (hence the name!) enough for one to not god-mode over the other. This, of course, isn't always the case. Sometimes two strangers want to duke it out without wanting to deal with the hassle of rolls. And, that can lead to a huge problem when neither player wants to get defeated.

I think that's where this issue comes in, then. Because with trust fighting, you have to take in a LOT of different things into account. Fatigue, skill, situational ability, wounds, etc. Both players have to have a sense of humility and know when their character has reached their limit, with one of them emoting a defeat when it feels appropriate. Unfortunately, there can be situations where neither player wants to 'back down', believing that their character is da bestest fightar aroundz who shouldn't be defeated in this situation.

Then, I can see how the DK armor summoning ability could be over-powered. It effectively nullifies the element of surprise. It means that Death Knights can never be 'jumped' or caught off-guard, which is an advantage that no other class (besides maybe mage) has. So, I can see why people would want this ability taken away, especially considering how it has it's roots in Fandom rather than any solid lore.

Having said that, I think there is a larger issue affecting Death Knights. Well, perhaps not just any specific issue, but a multitude of them. For one thing, I think general society as of right now is too accepting of Death Knights. I see players of all types show virtually no reaction to the presence of a Death Knight, establishing relationships with them as if it was nothing.

Death Knights are walking weapons of mass destruction. They're abominations who fill the battlefield with terror and woe. I would think that any living creature should be terrified of them, and not want to have any sort of interaction with them whatsoever. I don't think any organization outside of the Ebon Blade would trust a DK in their ranks; what would happen if a DK lost their shit and turned on their allies? They should be viewed as a giant liability.

...and don't get me started on rogue Death Knights. Those things should be kill-on-sight by all factions (most specifically, the Ebon Blade).

What am I trying to get at? The perception of DK's should be much different than what they are. If your character was to engage in direct combat with one, they shouldn't expect the fight to be easy. They should know that the DK has access to abilities far beyond mortal comprehension, able to raise the dead and scorch the earth with rot and plague. In this sense, summoning armor and the like shouldn't be removed from possibility. That's what makes a Death Knight a Death Knight; they are living weapons of war and destruction. Their combat abilities should be above the average.

Now, should this make them invincible? Hell no! Anything can be killed, with the right amount of preparation and strategy. But when it comes to a Death Knight, the character should plan and strategize obsessively. Don't just rely on the element of surprise; have the entire battle mapped out in incredible detail. In other words, the fight should look something like this.


Homura vs Walpurgis Night: (Warning; spoilers for Magical Girl Madoka ahead though honestly if you haven't seen this by now you probably don't care.)

Lay on the offense thick and heavy. Have not just one weapon, but multiple weapons, prepared for all ranges. Have something to hit the enemy with no matter where it goes to. And even with all of that, be prepared for it still not to be enough.

To use another example, take the mentality of one of the non-Jedi characters in the Star Wars universe has when they have to go up against a Jedi Knight or a Sith Lord. Can a non-Jedi kill a Force User? Yes, they can. But its not something they go on doing willy-nilly; they have to plan for it, meticulously.

So, now that I'm far off the original topic, I'll re-iterate.

In the grander schemes, the armor summoning stuff isn't all that big of a thing. I see other bigger things in regards to DK's and how they're played. I see a lot of people playing them "Wrong", but I never speak out against it (except now, of course) because I've given up on trying to change other people. Also, I think non-DK's need to have better reactions against them.

Also go watch Madoka.

A bit off topic, but Krent, you are the only person that is capable of making me want to be a magical girl.

This is perhaps more a response to Krent's post than anything else.. I too am guilty of De-railing.. (I'll hang myself in shame after this..)

I think way too many people think they're playing 1st gen. Death Knights. The fight linked in the video is nowhere near what a fight against a playable Death Knight would be. At all. That's -exactly- the problem. Death knights think they're "All that" and indestrutible, when quite frankly. most of what made them "All powerful" was taken from them the second they became sentient (Or perhaps a better choice of words is free will) and fell from the Lich King's command and Ranks, the stat bonues, the "Ressurrect upon death" all symbols of how strong a Death Knight with the Lich King pulling the strings can be, but when you take that away, and you're instead powered by something that was powered by that force which was taken away before, you lose a great deal of power "juice" And yeah, sure you can point me to -Lore- characters who're still powerful. Lore characters (Especially Darion Mograine) cannot be used as an example of how strong a playable Death knight should be.

Take the druid for instance, if we went by In-game spells, you're eff'd son, that's the effin' MOON firin' it's lazer at you. Heck, they can summon trees at will, root you in place while you're beaten with twigs! Infact, I'd be more scared of the druid than I would a Death Knight. The druid has more capabilities in keeping him or herself alive AND hit you back harder, and get nature to help out on top of that, yet you don't see as many druids thinking they're a raid boss as you do Death Knights, and nor should either one be treated like they are, or act as such. They are, and were.. And... Are again, mortal, and should try to remember that, even if you were depraved of emotions before, it's emotions that bring back your free will (Or did everyone just race through the Death knight quests to play something bad ass?)

Yes, Death Knights (Under the command of the Lich King) were powerful engines of mass destruction (Not even that powerful, again, See character / Lore Character comparrison above) And even now they're still capable fighters, but less so than they were before. I've seen Death Knights walk around like they're a 1-man army wih no fear. (News flash; You can still die, and feel pain - Several Lore figures as well as 'Foot Soliders' cry out in pain in written lore, in the game, ect. ect. When struck by unholy, normal, magic or holy weapons/Magic. Sure they can walk on after being made a pin-cushion, but they cringe, sneer or groan in pain all the same, something I see rarely in Death Knights.)

The fact that it is a "Hero" class is because WoW is first and foremost a -game- and the word "Hero" has nothing to do with it's IC capabilities as a playable character. It simply means; You must have a level XX before you can play this character that starts at XX level, thus saving you lots of time on levelling so you can play something cool.

I just went way out of topic.. I apologise if I derailed this entirely. I shall go to the corner of shame..
I'd also like to note, due to misunderstandings before, and the fact it's hard to get what my mood is / emotions are when I type things down, I'm not pointing any fingers, calling any names, or anything, if you feel as though I have stung you, it might have something to do with your own feelings towards me (That's actually proven, not trying to induce spite)

So, because I've been misunderstood in the past.. I'd just like to say that's my personal view on Death Knights, and that I don't have anyone I despise and want to murder, humiliate or otherwise poke at with this post. I just wanted to give my input. (You may strike me down now *Hides* )

(06-03-2012, 06:12 PM)spiky Wrote: [ -> ]This is perhaps more a response to Krent's post than anything else.. I too am guilty of De-railing.. (I'll hang myself in shame after this..)

I think way too many people think they're playing 1st gen. Death Knights. The fight linked in the video is nowhere near what a fight against a playable Death Knight would be. At all. That's -exactly- the problem. Death knights think they're "All that" and indestrutible, when quite frankly. most of what made them "All powerful" was taken from them the second they became sentient (Or perhaps a better choice of words is free will) and fell from the Lich King's command and Ranks, the stat bonues, the "Ressurrect upon death" all symbols of how strong a Death Knight with the Lich King pulling the strings can be, but when you take that away, and you're instead powered by something that was powered by that force which was taken away before, you lose a great deal of power "juice" And yeah, sure you can point me to -Lore- characters who're still powerful. Lore characters (Especially Darion Mograine) cannot be used as an example of how strong a playable Death knight should be.

Take the druid for instance, if we went by In-game spells, you're eff'd son, that's the effin' MOON firin' it's lazer at you. Heck, they can summon trees at will, root you in place while you're beaten with twigs! Infact, I'd be more scared of the druid than I would a Death Knight. The druid has more capabilities in keeping him or herself alive AND hit you back harder, and get nature to help out on top of that, yet you don't see as many druids thinking they're a raid boss as you do Death Knights, and nor should either one be treated like they are, or act as such. They are, and were.. And... Are again, mortal, and should try to remember that, even if you were depraved of emotions before, it's emotions that bring back your free will (Or did everyone just race through the Death knight quests to play something bad ass?)

Yes, Death Knights (Under the command of the Lich King) were powerful engines of mass destruction (Not even that powerful, again, See character / Lore Character comparrison above) And even now they're still capable fighters, but less so than they were before. I've seen Death Knights walk around like they're a 1-man army wih no fear. (News flash; You can still die, and feel pain - Several Lore figures as well as 'Foot Soliders' cry out in pain in written lore, in the game, ect. ect. When struck by unholy, normal, magic or holy weapons/Magic. Sure they can walk on after being made a pin-cushion, but they cringe, sneer or groan in pain all the same, something I see rarely in Death Knights.)

The fact that it is a "Hero" class is because WoW is first and foremost a -game- and the word "Hero" has nothing to do with it's IC capabilities as a playable character. It simply means; You must have a level XX before you can play this character that starts at XX level, thus saving you lots of time on levelling so you can play something cool.

I just went way out of topic.. I apologise if I derailed this entirely. I shall go to the corner of shame..
I'd also like to note, due to misunderstandings before, and the fact it's hard to get what my mood is / emotions are when I type things down, I'm not pointing any fingers, calling any names, or anything, if you feel as though I have stung you, it might have something to do with your own feelings towards me (That's actually proven, not trying to induce spite)

So, because I've been misunderstood in the past.. I'd just like to say that's my personal view on Death Knights, and that I don't have anyone I despise and want to murder, humiliate or otherwise poke at with this post. I just wanted to give my input. (You may strike me down now *Hides* )

Psssshtt, since when have we cared about derailing threads? And don't worry about worrying about not being fully understood, or stuff being misunderstood. Communication is an impossibility. All individuals are incapable of empathy in the truest sense; we never know anything beyond our own internal perceptions and emotions. And even then, we're not even sure of that, so misconstructions are bound to happen.

And, on that note, I have to say that I agree with you. The point I was trying to make wasn't that playable Death Knights are THAT powerful, but that they should be perceived to be that powerful. Even though we, as players, know of the limitations of DK's, our character's shouldn't. The very mention of a Death Knight should invoke fear and revulsion in characters, and my point was that it...doesn't.

I see people going up to Death Knights all the time and being all "O hai whassup mangk". The reaction should be "GET THIS WALKING ABOMINATION OUT OF THE CITY BEFORE IT KILLS EVERYONE!!". And when engaging in combat with a DK, a character should assume the worst.

That isn't to suggest that they should be all that powerful. I agree with the notions that one of the main problems with DK's is that, I'm sorry to say, out of all character classes they tend to have the most 'God Mode' potential. I don't mean to point any fingers or anything, but from my own personal experience, DK's tend to be the most abuse than any other class.

...also I know it looks like I'm back-tracking but please understand that I understand where you're coming from and I hope we have an understanding understandment.