Conquest of the Horde

(As a minor digression on my part it probably is worth noting that while we can make comparisons between eastern and western fantasy all day...

Warcraft -is- a western fantasy. Noblebright paladins, knights, castles, kings and the like. ...Elves. Warcraft is pretty firmly a western fantasy setting, and if we're going to say 'well western fantasies have silly things too' then yes, you're right.




So perhaps a better way to look at this would be looking into why there are eastern fantasy troops appearing in a western fantasy setting. Because while they both are indeed fantasy settings, they certainly have a different look, feel and generally fanbase to them. You can't mesh a story about knights and ninjas together without someone noticing, simply put. It'll draw some eyes, and in the case of warcraft it'd honestly kinda be a bit strange to see while RPing an average character.

So yeah. Personally that's the thing here. Yes, western fantasy can be silly. But hey, we came to a warcraft server for that! But why are eastern fantasy bits and pieces floating in now? I'm thinking that's more of the question, though I could be wrong. Just my thoughts there.


...PS: I also really don't get the bafflement over the comparison. It's showing two shows people like from each genre, and meant only to show general mannerisms. Not like we're trying to say that one genre is better than the other, just that one 'fits' better.)

I wouldn't totally say Warcraft is entirely western. Western-originated, yes. But of all the supplemental material I've read besides "Rise of the Horde", the kind I have been exposed to is Warcraft manga. In fact, Kapre and Mahen'tosh's relationship--orc and draenei being best friends despite their history--was inspired by Leena and Jaruk Bloodfyre from "Family Values", which is from Volume two of Tokyopop published Warcraft Legends. If you've read the chapter (and the rest of the graphic novel), it's ripe with anime tropes--super deformed expressions, chibis, sweatdrops, Moe-faced girls, the works.

And let's not forget the Sunwell Trilogy, which I did check out. It was manga as heck. XD


But yes. I'd say Warcraft is western-originated and inspired, but to say it is ALL ENTIRELY western is inaccurate. Plus, don't forget how Blizzard applied some Asian culture in a lot of the lore, so having your orc or night elf act with traces of Japanese wouldn't be unusual at all.


The only thing I really would not want to see in WoW RP is the unrealistic tropes such as Talkin is a Free Action, though this is not restrictive to just anime. I don't like seeing gnomes carrying swords four times their weight or waifish Blood elf women taking down hordes of Taurens like they were bugs. That's really all I got from the original post, which I agree fully. But I wouldn't attribute the bad tropes to solely anime.

Just gonna throw this in there.

Just wait, wait for all the Anime tropes. They will come with the pandas. Carmel Dansen is only part of it, even though that's swedish, I think, it's still the most popular in japan.

But other than that, I think you are missing Krent's point. Entirely.

Western stuffs is just as rediculous. We're the home of Transformers and other crap. Fantasy wise? We have stuff like Lord of the Rings (Watch those again, and tell me that half that stuff is realistic in combat), Eragon, How to Train Your Dragon, and the list goes on.

It doesn't matter so much if you compare it to anime. You could say it's just "unrealistic" and move on from that, which is at the heart what the topic is about. It seems like people have been focusing on "anime" as if to call the type of combat being used as one of the worst things they could say, because in nerd communities anime is pretty far down there again.

If you outright said "I like anime", then you'd most likely get teased by your peers, especially if you are an adult. But, if you say "I like stuff like... lord of the rings!" you're going with a safe, pretty popular route. Does this make sense now? I think Krent's beef is that comparing this to anime is well, taking a knock at two different things in sort of odd ways.





BACK ON POINT... I think that after sleeping on it, I can come forth again with some more constructive... stuff. Suggestions for both sides of the arguments. One side wants less epic, more standard fights. The other, wants to keep it above the norm, and keep doin' their thing.

Neither side is right or wrong. Noone is going to admit to doing things wrong, everyone will state examples where they were right, so really, it's gonna go nowhere.

Well, here's me. Saying how I do things. Judge me how you will, but this is how I play Rensin.



Back when I had him in the arena as a gladiator, I had Rensin use light armor, mixed with swords or fist weapons. He used moves that involved kicking, punching, throwing sand, and quickly dodging rather than blocking. This led to some combat aspects that were more akin to wrestling, or martial arts.

When fighting with a partner, (Especially rofu), we used to try to come up with ways during our trust fights to incorporate GROUP attacks, and we'd often compare them to Chrono trigger moves, like x-slash. Rof would make a cut one way, Rensin would make another another way, and all was done in descriptions that used words like "Rushed up quickly". As anime-esq as it might be, we had fun doing it.

Now, I never know what people think of my roleplay. Rensin, for all intents and purposes, could almost be exchanged with a dwarf. He curses like a sailor, he slurs words like he's choking on sticky cheese, and he also drinks, a lot. Now, I've had people say some things to me that make me second guess my work on the character. Over the years, I've tried to make him more serious. However, that's just personality. In regards to fights, he's lost many times. Women, gnomes, Tauren, gnomes again; and I've had him -accept- that he doesn't always win.

He died in the arena. As a gladiator. Had his face burned off, and his feet removed. I did not revive him, and only brought him back after the restart... a year or so after.

Thing is, I fall into some tropes. I know I do. I -hate- that people want me to second guess this crap, because honestly, I love playing my characters my way. I think too often, -way too often- people try to scrutinize what others do in RP when really, we aren't doing anything different than anyone one else, including the people who are constantly doing the wincing.

Talking with someone the other day, I realized something... everyone at some point on CoTH has made me go "What the hell?". Thing is, you gotta let it go. We all have our own tastes. Our own ideas. You're not gonna be pleased by everyone else, or be able to please everyone else.



So, in the words of the Beatles...

Well, more what I meant to point out was that since Warcraft is indeed a western fantasy it will undeniably have some of the elements-- the crazy armor being one of those.

It does indeed have eastern influence, but I don't think that's necessarily the same. Of course, being someone who has never seen the manga or the like all I have to go off of is the game itself, which (in the stuff I've seen), does primarily work off of western tropes in lieu of the eastern ones; you don't see big bombastic fights between two guys where they're punching each other through walls and flying and the like-- thematically it just keeps more to what you would expect of a fantasy novel or show to be when oriented to the west.

As I said, there are certainly eastern elements; one way to look at this might be to examine an anime like Full Metal Alchemist, which doesn't take place in a Japanese setting (that's the example I know of- don't hit me. I don't even know too much about that. Not good with anime, heh), instead that's more of a german...-ish sorta thing. I think. And it certainly exemplifies all the eastern tropes you'd expect from anime.

Point being, it doesn't really matter if stylistic influences from the east are in the game-- that doesn't automatically make it have the same tropes, as they can be handled drastically different. Just because night elves have japanese influence doesn't mean they are prone to anime-esque tropes, and the same goes for orcs where that applies.


EDIT: Aaaand... no, I get Krent's post. My post was in response to the sentiment. Yes, western tropes can be just as silly, but Warcraft is a western oriented setting. It's going to have those tropes, and that's pretty normal. But if anime type stuff started ending up in your Tolkien esque settings, you'd bet someone is going to notice.

I don't mean to say either is better or worse, it's just that the tropes from western storytelling work because the setting is geared for that to be acceptable and is embraced by the creators.

(And actually I haven't seen much anime-esque stuff from MoP, surprisingly-- it all seems pretty tame, compared to what they could be doing with it.)


...EDIT 2: And heck, I'm not actually trying to argue that this stuff shouldn't be around. Just saying that the argument that 'the other stuff is just as silly' doesn't hold ground when those other tropes are already part of the setting and embraced by it-- it is a setting made around those tropes.

So many edits. Hopefully this is clarified.

I agree with you Rensin, almost completely. But there -is- a limit. I believe this was more about the injuries sustained and seemingly ignored, always dodging attacks or making them seemingly nothing to your character, and probably the most important (To myself mostly) the long talks people have -in- combat. Sure, before a fight, talk all you want. But once it starts, you don't jump away and circle for ten minutes chatting it up. But so long as your not godmodding, who really cares how you fight? So long as it's realistic, if it's semi anime, or more real world,

(05-23-2012, 09:06 AM)Rensin Wrote: [ -> ]So, in the words of the Beatles...

Spoiler:

Let It Be.

(05-23-2012, 08:25 AM)ImagenAshyun Wrote: [ -> ]waifish Blood elf women taking down hordes of Taurens like they were bugs.

Sorry, but you clearly do not know Blood Elves in that case.(Yes, that's a joke. Seriousness follows.) They'll spit in the face of gods out of spite if it befits them, and cleverly insult their way through the hordes of hell. It's their whole gist - Blood Elves think themselves superior, sometimes to extreme degrees. I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often, what with how haughty, aloof and sometimes arrogant they tend to be. I'd commend a Blood Elf player that spoke like that, talking down other races, rather than berate them, because they stuck with the race's 'mood' even when faced with obvious detriment(like the horde of raging moocows). Admittedly, if they actually -did- manage to blitz their way through the enemy somehow... I really can't see a way to do it without Magic.

...Warcraft isn't Tolkienesque, really. Last I checked, armor was mildly realistic in Tokienesque fantasy, and at least had to cover the body. Additionally, magic wasn't quite open to anyone that wished to practice it, and typically took some sort of higher force or greater purpose. Similarly, in Tolkienesque fantasy, half-races were in -VERY DEEP TROUBLE-, to the point at which either they outright didn't exist, or their parents gave their lives to make 'em. If anything, Warcraft is a casual-ized D&D.

Warcraft does have eastern tropes in it, though. Just look at Blood Elves. Everything from the way they wield 2h swords, to their hairstyles screams it. It's not so much Legolas-hair as it is Sephiroth. Look at Blademasters. Not only are they styled after Samurai, what with the Sashimono, but they even have Japanese-styled names. And the beads and so on.

But yeah, if you simply cannot live without yer anime tropes, then adapt 'em to Western fiction. Westernize 'em. Maybe you like mecha - Make a Steamwarrior and fight in a mech. Maybe you like automail - Make a Techno-mage and have an artificial arm or leg, or whatever. Maybe you like Yu Yu Hakusho 'n DBZ - Make a dang Runemaster and punch and kick your enemy in the most crazy ways to your heart's content, smack 'em around a bit.

I'm more peeved at bikini-platemail than I am at anime tropes, honestly. The latter may bring about a few incongruencies, but the former's just nuts. Claymore vs Bare Flesh tends to end in the large, sharp sword's favor. That's not to say you shouldn't be able to wear it - which you definitely should - but don't pretend it's battlefield-ready armor. Then again, half the armor made in medieval times was purely for show - for ceremonial purposes, to the point at which it became useless in combat, typically due to weight concerns, so it's not like having a showy suit of armor is anything new.

Use common sense. Try to tend towards realism, especially if you enjoy it. Unless you're a magic-user, don't fly around. But -do- be heroic.

Forgive the poor audio quality. But this is what I mean. Charging forth into the face of adversity, knowing full well you could die.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgjbj5stgwU[/youtube]

Edit: Dammit, typos. I keep eating words. Just woke up, tho'...

Bottom line: both sides like to play as they do. Both opinions have a measure of validity, given the environment in which we play and how Blizzard has inconsistently portrayed events. Play as you like and if people don't approve don't roleplay with them. This thread has proven that there are people on both sides of the fence, so there won't be a shortage of battle-centric companions.

Quote:I'd commend a Blood Elf player that spoke like that, talking down other races, rather than berate them, because they stuck with the race's 'mood' even when faced with obvious detriment

Lately i've seen a lot of the opposite, unfortunately.

(05-23-2012, 09:43 AM)flammos200 Wrote: [ -> ]I'm more peeved at bikini-platemail than I am at anime tropes, honestly. The latter may bring about a few incongruencies, but the former's just nuts. Claymore vs Bare Flesh tends to end in the large, sharp sword's favor. That's not to say you shouldn't be able to wear it - which you definitely should - but don't pretend it's battlefield-ready armor. Then again, half the armor made in medieval times was purely for show - for ceremonial purposes, to the point at which it became useless in combat, typically due to weight concerns, so it's not like having a showy suit of armor is anything new.

Actually, most Western weapons designed after the advent of plate armor were designed either to be able to pierce through such thick metal (like crossbows) or simply be massive, heavy and able to simply crush the metal. (like claymores, flails, warhammers, etc) Not that a claymore wouldn't be effective on bikini armor, but it would theoretically be conserve more energy and effort for one to be equipped with Western-style weaponry for armor-wearing individuals, then come at women in bikini plate with Japanese weaponry, which was designed in a locale largely sans plate metal.
/silly overanalasys

(I still would like to see the Martin Fury be availavle to mail/plate wearing classes on the server because it is a shirt that looks like simple plate armor...)

That being said, I don't feel like Pandas are going to corrupt WoW or whatever like some people suspect. (haven't gotten to play it myself, but I'm keeping up with the news)
I continue to uphold the idea that MoP was likely designed in part to please the large Chinese audience, and if they were to go and make it primarily silly and pop-culture Japanese-ie, they'd know. The Chinese are the reason the Pandaren stopped wearing primarily Japanese attire in the Warcraft games. WoW is a fantasy setting based primarily on the values and history of its Western audience with the capacity for real drama and noble acts amidst the stright-faced conflict. Why should we expect anything less, but with an Eastern spin, because it has giant pandas? Why would Blizzard make a mockery of their millions of Chinese players?

Sure, there's going to be plenty of vapid individuals who go "Well, there's bamboo here, so it must be an anime," but we don't have to have this here at least, should we get to MoP any time in the near future. Yeah, it will have a lot of pop culture references, but that's nothing new in WoW.

(05-23-2012, 09:16 AM)KageAcuma Wrote: [ -> ]But so long as your not godmodding, who really cares how you fight?

Ayup. I know my wording tends to make me sound like a stickler on many an RP matter, but at least with combat, this is how I feel. Just
Hopefully, if you're really out there you try to make the people you're RPing with comfortable with your ideas before launching facefirst into bizarre concepts, but if you can make it work, I could give zero of these:

And I am really looking foreward to see how people make Forsaken Brewmasters work ICly.

So, the main take-away from this thread is that everyone needs better anime to watch.

Texhnolyze
Serial Experiments Lain
Ergo Proxy
Dennou Coil
Neon Genesis Evangelion
Sai-kano
Monster
Last Exile
Baccano
Akagi
Kaiji
Puella Magi Madoka Magia

GO GO GO GO GO GO GO

...What about Gurren Laagan? I MUST PIERCE THE SKY WITH MY DRILL?

Row-row, fight the powa? No? Anyone?

It could fit a Gnome, c'mon!

You guys forgot Dragonball :c

(05-23-2012, 11:15 AM)Krent Wrote: [ -> ]So, the main take-away from this thread is that everyone needs better anime to watch.

Texhnolyze
Serial Experiments Lain
Ergo Proxy
Dennou Coil
Neon Genesis Evangelion
Sai-kano
Monster
Last Exile
Baccano
Akagi
Kaiji
Puella Magi Madoka Magia

GO GO GO GO GO GO GO

I'll agree with most of these, but you forgot Baccano!, DRR!, Moribito: Guardian of the Spirit, GITS:SAC etcetcetc

And... Eva kinda sucks bro. But you like Madoka, so I could see why you would like Eva. They're kind of in the same vein (deconstruction of the typical genre).. but meh. It's all too meta-hipster for me.

(05-23-2012, 12:06 PM)Rensin Wrote: [ -> ]...What about Gurren Laagan? I MUST PIERCE THE SKY WITH MY DRILL?

Row-row, fight the powa? No? Anyone?

It could fit a Gnome, c'mon!

. . . I don't really understand what you mean with this. That thing has always been OOC.

... If it serves as a consolation, I've also watched Bo-Bo-Bo Bo Bo Bo-Bo and Valkyria Chronicles.