Conquest of the Horde

I found a quest that sorta hints at shadow healing, after a bit more looking. Sadly the quest is from Cata, so I'm not sure if that holds any here, but a hint of lore is a hint of lore. The quest is 'Of Light and Shadows' and this is the quest text:

Quote:A Forsaken priest is a curious beast,
<his/her> path an unusual course.
$G His: Her; shadowy rites cannot come from the Light, so <he/she> seeks a more sinister source.

Not only has the world forsaken us, <name>... it seems the Light has left us as well. As the poem hints, however... we are not without power.

First, I shall teach you a fast heal to repair damage. Speak with me again, and I will share with you the word's proper incantation.

The quest-giver says that the light has left the forsaken and that they get their power from a more 'sinister source'. This could just mean that the light is a game thing only and what they're really using is shadow, as I really don't think you would ICly be taught to use the light after just being told that, "Oh, by the way, the light has forsaken us but hey, we can heal anyway with the light ."

This is a far stretch, I realize, but eh. I'm just trying my hardest to find any lore about it that I can!

I think that this is referring to the Holy Light that Humans worship. This is all my interpretation but, there is more than one method of obtaining the light. While it all comes from the Naaru and Draenei are given it directly from them (in the same way that Druids obtain there's directly from the Spirit of nature), Humans seem to become more powerful with more self-discipline and willpower.

I wouldn't say that Forsaken priests just can't use the light, more that they get it from a different method than they did when they were alive; using the whole balance mubo-jumbo that the cult of forgotten shadow preaches.

I'm of the opinion that shadow can heal, mainly for reasons already stated in this thread.

(05-16-2012, 10:20 PM)Scout Wrote: [ -> ]I'm personally of the belief that shadow priests can heal, but only by draining life from one source and transmitting it to another (vampiric embrace and the like)

You've got the shadow priest abilities to do so. In Cataclysm I believe Vampiric touch has been removed but Devouring Plague definitely does damage and heals the caster at the same time. At the very least they can heal themselves with shadow magic, meaning that shadow magic can have the ability to heal.

Also mentioned, Death Knights and Death Coil which heals an undead target.

Finally, we all know of necromancers and the repairs they make to undead. Its apart of the reason why they are desirable in Undercity, because they can restore a Forsaken to how he/she was after being risen.

What is interesting here is that Blizzard does seem to have three different classes going on for what kind of 'magic' is involved (though they seem inter-related). In order, Shadow, Unholy, and Death. They also all have specific targets and different properties.

!.) Shadow, seeing as any race with shadow priests ideally could use the spell, would heal a caster regardless of living or dead status. It might also be worth noting that here we talk about magic originating from the Shadow Plane.

2.) Unholy seems to focus on just the dead... (And even then it seems more of a renewed vitality). Also runic magic, as far as I know, as some arcane ties.

3.) Death also focuses on the dead, but the act is also different from Unholy as it restores to a previous condition. I'm not sure that you could Death Coil someone back to their original state (and I doubt it). Also, worth noting that necromantic energy is closely related to arcane.

... I may be rambling a bit with some unnecessary points but here's the summarizing Tl;dr:

I'd think the school of 'Shadow' as in magic that priests use as being able to heal anyone. However, at least from a game mechanic point of view that healing is done by taking energy and putting it elsewhere.

Schools of Unholy and Death magic seem to focus on healing just the undead (and seeing as they are based in something that is arcane, and the act of raising the dead is tied to arcane, I'd say the healing process there is fundamentally different due to source, but this is just speculation).

It seems I have to explain this, since folks got off-topic in talking about how priest magic works.

Once, there was a policy announced that priests could only use one or the other. This was a mistake on part of the GM in question and was changed later. We follow Blizzard lore where possible, and Blizzard lore leaves no question that priests can use magic of both stripes regardless of their faith. Benedictus and Confessor Paletress both provide good examples of priests that declare their faith in something, and use magic that appears otherwise contrary to that faith. Also consider that many faiths preach the concepts of duality: there are many different Loa and their preferences on the form of magic would vary, and the Forgotten Shadow states plainly that Forsaken priests have to walk a line between shadow and light.

I think a lot of this confusion was left because of the names given the religions, specs, and spell schools. The Holy Light is not the same thing as the Holy specialization for priests, which is not the same thing as the holy spell school mechanic for how the game's spellcasting works. This is why I say that priests got subject to a lot of fanon which clouded how they really act in Blizzard's lore. Never is it said that they're restricted to just their one school of specialization, and indeed it would make no sense once you factor in Discipline as a spec choice in the first place. It's therefore clear that Forsaken, when referring to "The Light abandoning them," they are referring specifically to the force that makes up the religion, not holy magic itself (which they are able to wield just fine while worshiping the Forgotten Shadow.) A "shadow priest" is then still capable of using holy magic, much as a fire mage is still capable of using frost.

It's best to then just completely disassociate the concepts of spec and faith from each other. If they use Light with a capital letter, then it's probably the religion, not the flavor of magic. Same with "Shadow."

So the question persists: can a priest, by default, heal another person with shadow magic? Does it make sense, given what we know now of how priest magic works?

(05-17-2012, 11:35 AM)Grakor456 Wrote: [ -> ]So the question persists: can a priest, by default, heal another person with shadow magic? Does it make sense, given what we know now of how priest magic works?

Provided said person is Undead, yes. Definitely. At least, as far as my opinion on the matter goes.

After all, it's a matter of Belief.

Quote:So the question persists: can a priest, by default, heal another person with shadow magic? Does it make sense, given what we know now of how priest magic works?

I'm pretty sure that question was answered on the first page.

(05-17-2012, 11:55 AM)flammos200 Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-17-2012, 11:35 AM)Grakor456 Wrote: [ -> ]So the question persists: can a priest, by default, heal another person with shadow magic? Does it make sense, given what we know now of how priest magic works?

Provided said person is Undead, yes. Definitely. At least, as far as my opinion on the matter goes.

After all, it's a matter of Belief.

This, something I think is supported by this:

Le Quest Text Wrote:. . . <his/her> shadow rites cannot come from the Light, so <he/she> seeks a more sinister source.

If Forsaken priests are using the same kind of magical force as every other priest to heal their own kind, why would it be described as originating from a different, darker source? That the priest trainer mentions teaching the PC a healing spell only two lines down after reciting the poem simply compounds this suggestion in my eyes.

(05-17-2012, 12:13 PM)Sol Wrote: [ -> ]If Forsaken priests are using the same kind of magical force as every other priest to heal their own kind, why would it be described as originating from a different, darker source? That the priest trainer mentions teaching the PC a healing spell only two lines down after reciting the poem simply compounds this suggestion in my eyes.

The answer is implied in my earlier post: they used "Light" with a capital L, suggesting that they're talking about the difference in the religious bodies of Light vs. Shadow, not the difference between holy magic vs. shadow magic.

(05-17-2012, 05:00 AM)Sol Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-17-2012, 03:59 AM)Bovel Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-16-2012, 10:02 PM)Grakor456 Wrote: [ -> ]Established facts: Priests can use both light and shadow magic regardless of their actual faith or spec,

Say what?!
That is just plain-powerplaying-roleplay-stupid.

Elaborate? It's game-mechanically possible by every stretch and one of the most prominent priest NPCs currently in-game is certainly capable of it. There is a darker side to worship of Elune epitomised by her Night Warrior aspect and the vengeful spirits of the Wardens and the Watchers, and the faith of the Forgotten Shadow does, in fact, preach a careful balance between darkness and Light as an important central tenet. The Loa will harm or heal depending on which ones you call upon -and, as the Paletress example above suggests, even the most devout and good-natured Light-user can call forth shadow magic with sufficient motivation. (That said, the Argents are avowed heretics from the Church of the Holy Light and have vastly different standards of acceptability than most priests.)

To be fair, Confessor Paletress is technically a super-duper-powerful lore character. Consider that she's personally dueled every Argent Crusader who marched onto Icecrown and was among Tirion's highest ranking lieutenants... yeah.

Anyway, I would say it is POSSIBLE to RP a priest who can be Dark and Light at the same time... but you'd better have a goooood reason as to WHY. I mean, I wouldn't much want to see holy-rolling Stormwind priest flinging Shadow Words and Curses at people JUST BECAUSE THEY CAN. Even my own High Priest, Aryeon, who dabbles in some shadow spells (primarily mental ones), has justifications for it, and even then he doesn't fling around stuff that would be clearly OOC for a holy man to be using.

By extension, I don't really see why fanon is a bad thing here. I'd rather have fanon-priests who only use one school of magic and adhere to it faithfully than a overflow of multi-spec priests who fling Light and Shadow around as if it was no big deal with no regard as to how or why :|

I would still bring forward the fact that we've allowed whole different specializations of mage abilities in the past with hydromancy and electricity-based magic.

http://www.conquestofthehorde.com/Thread...arth-Magic

We don't have access to that by default, its an NPC thing; I think the ability to heal with shadow is less of a stretch, really.

(05-17-2012, 02:01 PM)CappnRob Wrote: [ -> ]Anyway, I would say it is POSSIBLE to RP a priest who can be Dark and Light at the same time... but you'd better have a goooood reason as to WHY. I mean, I wouldn't much want to see holy-rolling Stormwind priest flinging Shadow Words and Curses at people JUST BECAUSE THEY CAN. Even my own High Priest, Aryeon, who dabbles in some shadow spells (primarily mental ones), has justifications for it, and even then he doesn't fling around stuff that would be clearly OOC for a holy man to be using.

By extension, I don't really see why fanon is a bad thing here. I'd rather have fanon-priests who only use one school of magic and adhere to it faithfully than a overflow of multi-spec priests who fling Light and Shadow around as if it was no big deal with no regard as to how or why :|

Forgive me ahead of time for citing your post as an example, and I don't mean any of this as a personal attack. However, this is a good example of why I feel fanon is, often, a bad thing. Not always, but in this case it is.

Fanon clouds judgments and causes people to lose sight of objective judgments and reasoning. For example, you say that it'd be "clearly OOC" for a "holy man" to be using shadow spells. Obviously, it's NOT "clearly OOC" if we're even having this discussion. From an objective standpoint, we've been given nothing that states that priests are restricted to one form of magic, not here, not in the d20, and not in any game that came before this one. So, from an objective standpoint, your position is not clearly obvious at all, it's only obvious to your specific, fanon-inspired view and those that share it.

Meanwhile, we have a game that essentially tells us the complete opposite. Priests are given both holy and shadow magic and are allowed to use both without restriction, with the exception of Shadowform shenanigans. We are given examples of characters that can use both freely. Holy and shadow are opposites in a similar sense that fire and frost are opposites, yet we let mages use both of those. Given that priest magic is the result of a priest extending his will to manipulate reality, I see nothing at all contradictory about a priest using both holy and shadow. If he knows how to use one, certainly he can figure out how to use the other.

Now, you have your subjective point of view on the subject, and that is fine, but let's please avoid making absolute statements on something that is objectively not so cut and dry.

Rigley Wrote:We don't have access to that by default, its an NPC thing; I think the ability to heal with shadow is less of a stretch, really.

To be fair, I've no issue with someone claiming to have Shadowmend as a variant ability. I don't believe that in itself is in question, just whether Priests can do this by default.

The Dark Lady, Sylvanas Windrunner, realized how valuable necromancy was to their cause. Though Forsaken heal naturally, many go to the priests of the Forgotten Shadow for "repairs". Necromancers can also free enslaved, mindless undead and research powerful spells that might one day return the Forsaken to life. Sylvanas knew she needed necromancers to heal, strengthen and replace her people, and she set about wooing necromancers away from the Scourge, mainly by force.


I'm not sure how you want to look at that, since it's from the RPG, but they are healed by necromancers and the necromantic energy within them gives them mild regeneration-- akin to that of normal humans but slower I'd assume.

---

(05-17-2012, 02:23 PM)Rigley Wrote: [ -> ]I would still bring forward the fact that we've allowed whole different specializations of mage abilities in the past with hydromancy and electricity-based magic.

http://www.conquestofthehorde.com/Thread...arth-Magic

We don't have access to that by default, its an NPC thing; I think the ability to heal with shadow is less of a stretch, really.

O! Geomancy! Comment J'ai longtemps pour toi?

(05-17-2012, 02:41 PM)Grakor456 Wrote: [ -> ]

Rigley Wrote:We don't have access to that by default, its an NPC thing; I think the ability to heal with shadow is less of a stretch, really.

To be fair, I've no issue with someone claiming to have Shadowmend as a variant ability. I don't believe that in itself is in question, just whether Priests can do this by default.

...Oh.

Well!

See, now that depends on where we're gunning for with the word default. By default I have the inclination to say that Forsaken shadow priests would be able to. I'd be perfectly fine with the idea being that all other races would have to specify that as a variant-- I just believe it would be a given for the Forsaken.

(05-17-2012, 03:13 PM)Aphetoros Wrote: [ -> ]O! Geomancy! Comment J'ai longtemps pour toi?

Geomancy wasn't in the bag there, I believe, and its not really the can of worms I would want to get into.

I know; that post was made because I was playing a geomancer and it was decidedly disallowed because it ostensibly trod on the feet of shaman as a class. I wish I could play that guy, but hay; if I'm not allowed to play him, then I'm not allowed to play him. (Though I think something was said that I could special profile him and try to get it approved. #Lazy.)

And this is just a suggestion, but... what if there was a list compiled of abilities that were 100% necessary to profile for as a variant ability?

(05-17-2012, 05:00 AM)Sol Wrote: [ -> ]Elaborate? It's game-mechanically possible by every stretch and...

Please by the time I come to accept that, ban me from CotH.

Because I do not agree with the rules that have been picked for this server that religious powers are ambiguous and tied to game mechanics. Voodoo being a good example cannot be compared to shamanism, arcane or the standard divine balance of Light and Dark cause that's not what the faith is about even. To me, the detail that paladin's loose their powers if they stray sums faith in Warctaft up for me. Here you have my elaboration and that's off topic.