Conquest of the Horde

Articulating, Modulating and Communicating 101.

Quote:The true secret of giving advice is, after you have honestly given it, to be perfectly indifferent whether it is taken or not, and never persist in trying to set people right.
Hannah Whitall Smith, 1902

That said, welcome to Psychyn's post regarding advice giving and thought expression (Or flat out communicating)! Hopefully after this post, you'll remember a bit of pointers when expressing your thoughts and views, and perhaps when you give advice. Maybe you'll even throw me some pointers after reading, meaning this post can improve even more!

Starting off with thoughts, because we all love to express them, and why shouldn't we? It's perfectly valid to express our views and thoughts regarding one or multiple subjects, in one thread over and over.. Right? Or perhaps we should post our opinion and thoughts, over several threads while all the posts say the same thing!

Think and read the above infamous quote again! It is the same for thoughts. The true secret of expressing one's thoughts is that you do not force them on somebody and let people find their own way with your thoughts in the back of their minds. How do you get in there? You don't, that's up to the player who is receiving your thoughts. You should never -force- your thoughts by repeatedly stating them, or telling people to do something.

Allow players their own creativity and RP, even if you find it lore breaking or breaking common sense. (I'll add something regarding common sense later) A golden rule I tend to say to myself is: "You don't have to like it." It truly is not hard to close your eyes, close the page and pretend you never saw something. (I'm not saying you should close your eyes to extreme things, such as players breaking the rules, but there's a method for how to be friendly and stating your thoughts regarding that as well.)

Here's a example:

Now, as player I got the idea in my head of a 'alive' Deathknight. Doable? Yes, allowed? Yes. Frowned upon by many? Triple yes, but regardless.. I've put up a personal post, as the pretty alive DK has lost his former girlfriend, and wants to find her to be reunited, and have exceptional amounts of fun! I aim for a relationship. What do you post in the personal thread when you find it?

Option A: "Please no, just.. No."

Option B: "Alive Deathknights are ridiculous, because it's stated not possible in *Lore example X & Y, while allowed, you should really reconsider this!"

Option C: "While I've solely played dead Deathknight's, I think this can be fun! However, are you truly sure you want your Deathknight to be 'alive'? Think of all the physiological trauma's he would feel as 'alive' DK, in general.. He'd be very depressed?"

Option D: You close the page and browse the rest of the CotH forum, not expressing anything.
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Now, let's be honest here. I think most of you picked option A and B, no? That's al right! But look at it from the player side that has posted it. Option A, would cause me to frown and ask for elaboration.

Option B would make me frustrated, because I'm honestly not asking for advice regarding my character; I'm asking who wants to get involved with it. Not who doesn't want to get involved with it, or why it shouldn't be done!

Option C, gives a smile on my face because someone is actually interested! It makes me think, as perhaps my opinion has some flaws? Perhaps it's something that I have missed upon developing the concept? This requires more discussion!

Option D: This truly does not bother me because I won't ever know your dislike, and I do not gain any dislikes because I'm given answers that belong in my personals thread.

So! What have we (learned or) read? Remember the above quote still? If someone puts up a thread in the personal section, asking for something you do not like, why do you respond? Telling people to change something, when they do not ask for tips or pointers hampers ones happiness. (Going paladin style here). They did not ask or wanted your answer, which can only create a discussion. If you truly feel good for telling someone to change something, at least double check your posts and thoughts to see if they actually -need- to be told to change something.

In the end, you should never tell others to change something or demand something changed. (Exceptions towards GMs/Admins, who are there to mention such changes) I am aware that I could have placed many more examples in here, apart from the personals one. Think of profiles, events, general discussions, and much more.

Pointers of giving thoughts:

* When expressing thoughts, never tell people to change something. 'I think you should', 'You should totally' 'This bit is wrong and should be changed.' Try to type it in; ' What I think is best for.. , 'Your story is great, but perhaps you've overlooked' and more.
* Never put the fault at the player. 'Alive Deathknights? Rubbish, it's your fault so reconsider this.' Could be written as 'Alive Deathknights? Perhaps you could look into this bit.'
* Never mention the same opinion twice in a thread, it makes it feel forced, especially if there is no change or addition to the previous post. Aka 'I agree!' posts. If you must post your agreement, you could consider hitting the thanks/like button.
* Not everyone is native English, or has had the fortune of getting proper English education on school. I myself had to learn and teach myself, and due to already knowing Basic English on school, the teachers always let me be and focused on the people who did need help. Hence, my grammar and spelling and even pronouncing of words is way behind. (As you may have noticed in this thread! ^^)
* Being nice doesn't kill anyone! Wording your sentences nicer, and with more care then mind-bashing your posts because you must give an opinion. Being nice gets the point across as well, possibly even better!
* You don't have to like it! And if you truly cannot find anything good in the post of someone else, it's perhaps a wise thing to refrain from posting? I believe it's an old saying that ; If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.^.~

Examples of lines that shouldn't be used (Thanks Karunzo):

"Everybody knows that..."
"You'd have to be an idiot not to know that.."
"Everyone with a bit of common sense would agree that..."

Is known as a Fallacy in Rhetoric. This one in particular is an attempt to exclude other opinions. By attempting to appeal to emotions. Noone would want to be known as dumb or stupid so you hope to discourage people from attacking your argument.
Appeal to emotion

Other common Fallacies are:
False Analogy. (You're comparing two things that are completly different.)
Attacking the person (Instead of tackling the argument given you attack the person on his character.)
Square logic (Your argument is the same as your opinion)
Appeal to authority (Claiming something is true because an authority shares your opinion)
Argument from silence (Claiming something is true because it has'nt been disproven)



Now for the advice part:

Advices, the power of words that most people have ready and prepared. To aid people with words, is perhaps one of the things that grant people the best feeling. The ability to raise someone's chin, when they feel down or are stuck with something. I know I find it an amazing feeling, if I can uplift someone's mood or make their problems go away with words.

But what should we look after when giving advice? First and foremost, like thoughts we should never force it. A lot of advice is given regarding profiles, which is grand. Without advice and help, some profiles would never have been made. BUT, when giving advice, people are not obliged to listen and follow it.
It is up to the person, to decide whether they want follow your advice or not.

Also, advice may at times be given unneeded and unwanted. When can advise be unwanted? In profiles outside the workshop, while planning an event or when writing storylines. Granted, I've seen little misplaced advices or people openly stating they do not want someone else their advice, but advice always comes paired with a thought. If you give a honest advice, you do not give it to get a thorn out of your eye, but to truly help the other person.

And remember there are many ways to help apart from giving your advice to a person. I'm not saying all advice should be held back, or that no advice should be given when not asked, but remember to place yourself in the position of the one you are giving advice to. It's fine to give advice, but to give advice over and over when none is asked may become frustrating. You can become frustrated when no advice of you is heard, and others may become frustrated when given advice they didn't want or need.

Also, there are two ways (as I see it) available when giving advice;

1. Is to give advice to help a user with a problem -you- see.
2. Is to give advice when you want to help a user with a problem -they- see.

The difference is, is that with the first option, is that you see it as a problem. You deem something illogical, incorrect or as a problem while the user you give advice to, may have a complete other opinion, reasoning or such. They might not even see it as a problem themselves. This has the problem of creating a situation in which arguments are thrown back and forth, about something that might not have been a problem at all. (Or might have been, such as a rule breaking but in this case, why step in?)

If you give advice in a way as the second option, then I applaud your efforts as you help a user with something -they- see as a problem and not you. You might like the idea, or want to advance it even further.

Brings me somewhat to a next point. When giving advice and expressing thoughts, remember that you are not a authority figure. GMs and Admins have the final say in things, and not the person giving the advice despite being a absolute lore fanatic and knowledge-base. When things do not add up, and while your argument contains so many good points that you in words won the forum debate, people are not obliged to follow it because your just as good as them. You are also a forum user, and therefore should never try to overthrow someone with lore evidence, arguments and opinions.

Once a argument has been given, it has been given and should not be repeated till something new has been added. Unless it's a clarification of previous argument. (That is my opinion naturally!) I'll add the bit to the main post, including the above links.

In other words, if somebody comes to you asking for advice, or you feel the need to advice at somebody's profile.. Do not advice them to change what you do not like, but advice people to change what is outside the realm of possibilities.

Speaking of the realm of possibilities, it brings me to common sense. The invisible barrier to what is doable, and what isn't. What is allowed to be done, and what is not. I'll throw it out bluntly, in a advice to each and every single one that reads the thread.

Never use common sense as an argument.

Three reasons as to why common sense shouldn't be used as argument:

* Common sense is based on real life, and possibilities within real life and not world of warcraft. What is common or uncommon in real life, is not common or uncommon in a fantasy world. The boundaries of real life do not exist in WoW. Real life logic is flawed.
* What is common for you may not be common for somebody else. What you deem to be logical and real, can and will be deemed illogical and unreal by someone else.
* Common sense is vague; the word itself indicates commonness, so anything that's not common does not make sense? Try to be as clear as possible with reasoning and advices, but keep it friendly! No mind-bashing your thoughts and advices onto the keyboard.


TL;DR Do not post when the only thing you can post sounds unfriendly, you do not have to like every single thing, try to stay away from the above Fallacy's, never use common sense as a argument, don't mind bash your thoughts onto the keyboard and into a post, always reread them. When giving advice, make sure it's with a problem that user sees and not you.

Quote:The true secret of giving advice is, after you have honestly given it, to be perfectly indifferent whether it is taken or not, and never persist in trying to set people right.
Hannah Whitall Smith, 1902

Feel free to comment!

^
Pretty much says it all.
I support this cause, let us all stop forcing our views upon others and accept people's wishes.
Let us be kinder to another in our daily interactions. Let us open posts with the positive and express our concerns in a way that does'nt scare people away.

Also.
Isa wins.

Updated!

I'd also just like to add that saying something along the lines of:

"Everybody knows that..."
"You'd have to be an idiot not to know that.."
"Everyone with a bit of common sense would agree that..."

Is known as a Fallacy in Rhetoric. This one in particular is an attempt to exclude other opinions. By attempting to appeal to emotions. Noone would want to be known as dumb or stupid so you hope to discourage people from attacking your argument.
Appeal to emotion

Other common Fallacies are:
False Analogy. (You're comparing two things that are completly different.)
Attacking the person (Instead of tackling the argument given you attack the person on his character.)
Square logic (Your argument is the same as your opinion)
Appeal to authority (Claiming something is true because an authority shares your opinion)
Argument from silence (Claiming something is true because it has'nt been disproven)

I'd advise people to stay away from these when attempting to convince someone about what you perceive as a flaw in a character. Building your arguments on facts and providing links to or quotes from a certain lore article makes your argument much stronger.

Some nice advice that I think should be taken seriously and I understand completely what you are saying as I am indeed at fault completely of doing what you say not to do.

However, we all need criticism. In my opinion anyway. Nothing is perfect and people who do give 'unwanted' advice are not the ones at fualt, if someone disregards advice comepletely or asks for no advice or criticism...Well I think they are in the wrong because people are only trying to help.

I'm not criticising what you have said here, it is a nice and thoughtful post and I agree with most of it as I know I can be a bit...Blunt with my advice. But this is just my opinion and wanted to share it with you as you seem to be putting a lot of effort into this topic.

Ah, but there are many ways to help apart from giving your advice to a person. I'm not saying all advice should be held back, or that no advice should be given when not asked, but remember to place yourself in the position of the one you are giving advice to. It's fine to give advice, but to give advice over and over when none is asked may become frustrating. You can become frustrated when no advice of you is heard, and others may become frustrated when given advice they didn't want or need.

Also, there are two ways (as I see it) available when giving advice;

1. Is to give advice to help a user with a problem -you- see.
2. Is to give advice when you want to help a user with a problem -they- see.

The difference is, is that with the first option, is that you see it as a problem. You deem something illogical, incorrect or as a problem while the user you give advice to, may have a complete other opinion, reasoning or such. They might not even see it as a problem themselves. This has the problem of creating a situation in which arguments are thrown back and forth, about something that might not have been a problem at all. (Or might have been, such as a rule breaking but in this case, why step in?)

If you give advice in a way as the second option, then I applaud your efforts as you help a user with something -they- see as a problem and not you. You might like the idea, or want to advance it even further.

Brings me somewhat to a next point. When giving advice and expressing thoughts, remember that you are not a authority figure. GMs and Admins have the final say in things, and not the person giving the advice despite being a absolute lore fanatic and knowledgebase. When things do not add up, and while your argument contains so many good points that you in words won the forum debate, people are not obliged to follow it because your just as good as them. You are also a forum user, and therefore should never try to overthrow someone with lore evidence, arguments and opinions.

Once a argument has been given, it has been given and should not be repeated till something new has been added. Unless it's a clarification of previous argument. (That is my opinion naturally!) I'll add the bit to the main post, including the above links.

Thanks for the feedback, both of you, I shall update the main post soon again.

Edit: main post updated!
Edit2: I am aware I may have not always followed the advices and thoughts put into the main post myself, but hey. We are all human. ^.~ This isn't supposed to be a "I know everything, and you do not." thread, and as such, hereby admit my own fault when giving thoughts and advice myself.

Bump, with over 100 views and only 2 people responding here other then myself, people surely have a opinion after reading. Unless everyone went "o.o" at the size of the post and closed it again, in that case.. Death by monkeys! Monkeys I say!

No seriously, this thread could use more feedback posts, good and bad, other views then my own, and all that nifty stuff that my threads rarily seem to get for some reason.

Aka.. Post. TL;DR, POST.

Kind of on the topic of criticism, I notice the word mary-sue is thrown around here without explanation. I've seen a few posts towards characters in the works, or waiting to be approved in the past stating 'This character sounds Mary-sue because of <X>'. The problem I see is no one elaborates on why <X> looks that way. If you just point out something saying it is wrong, and don't explain why it can be leave the other person confused.

I am personally uncomfortable with the idea of living Death Knights and maintain an elitist disdain for their existence.

It isn't at all a fair sense of scorn and I generally keep it to myself that I view them as a magnet for a sort of roleplay I give a double-take at.





I do, I will note, grasp that there are well-played and celibate Death Knights of the technically "living" caliber, but do mind that I'm psychoanalyzing for where my discomfort derives.

Also... Are Death Knights immune to the corrupting effects of necrotic magic?

While yes, Arthas was technically alive, have you seen him?


This also guides me to my other opinion, that I'm not sure how a living Death Knight comes about except when one swears themself to the Scourge of their own fundamental volition.


You did ask me to post, and, well, this is how I feel about the matter. For what it's worth.

Right, after closing my page instead of hitting the submit button.. Let's try again!

I fear, you haven´t gotten the point at all LostStranger, I merely used the DK as example. It is something, of which I believe thoughts and advices have been expressed in less then alright manner, with certain scorn and minimal friendlyness.

This post, is about thought expression, voicing opinion and giving advices that come to the point, in a friendly manner so we all can get along better. I honestly do not care about DKs and their lore, but with that said, I personally give each and every single RPer on here the freedom to RP what they want. Even if it does not make sense, even if it´s lore breaking, as long as it is -fun- I'm alright with it.

So yeah, DKs truly are not the subject here apart from the example I gave, which was the first that came to my mind.

I also haven't mentioned the word Mary Sue, or leaned towards it. I even searched the place with the browser I used for the word, and the only time it was mentioned was in your post Cidaska? Any-how, thanks for the posts but please read the entirity of the post and not just the flashy colored bits. ^.~

Edit: I miss a browser WITH a spell checker.

Psychyn Wrote:I merely used the DK as example.

Frothing string of enraged expletives, this is what I get for casually skimming.

That's alright! Thanks for posting though! ;> Maybe I should add a TL;DR add the bottom bit.. *scratches chin*

I definitely agree with this post here! Instead of just saying something cannot happen, try to nudge someone towards thinking more in-depth about their idea, it promotes more creative thinking.

Using your example of the Living Death Knights (Sowwies!) they are an irregularity. Whilst not completely impossible, there needs to be some sort of explanation for using one other than 'They just are'. Think long and hard about it and come up with your own original idea. This could be said about anything too.

Thankies! T'is appreciated, and feel free to use that example but it was for me the first that came to mind, in which I personally found communication to be somewhat lacking tact. Not aiming the post towards anyone naturally, maybe I'll find a better example if it's truly too distracting from the main post.

Yay for creative thinking! Yay for friendlyness! Yay for the monke-.. *is swarmed*

...Wow. Simply wow.

My day has been filled with stress and arguments. I come home, expecting just to froth in a little cauldron of anger and mumbling, instead I find this. Thank you. Thank you -very- much. I for one believe in divine intervention, although you might not, I gotta say I think God thought I needed a slap upside the head. After reading this I can look back on everything I got angry about today and I have to say: They weren't worth it. They weren't even worth the mild discomfort I got from sitting in my chair the way I do when I talk.


Thanks Psychyn. I may not go around and apologize to all the people I've done this too, as my ego does -not- allow it, but I will indeed watch myself more carefully.