Conquest of the Horde

...My question here isn't that of "Can it happen?" We can argue for a very long time about differing perspectives, cultural norms, methods of study, and practicality of Light-based priesthood versus Shadow-based priesthood. It might happen but it would be, if anything, amazingly rare.

My question is more should you roll one? Is it going to be used as a gimmick, or portrayed without giving much thought about the implications? I don't want to offend you, but it has to be asked. If we're going to have such a rare representative of the race, it should be done extremely well.

Etmosril speaks the truth. nothing more annoying than to see a rare character portrayed in a bad way or barely portrayed at all, which I have seen my fair share of. It's just depressing.

c0rzilla Wrote:Ah, but it produces evil by way of making one lose all emotion.

Lack of emotion =/= Evil. It would just make you seem uncaring and extremly objective.

Take a closer look at my statement, Bovel. It -would- pretty much make your character "evil." Lack of emotions would cause your character to not know right from wrong anymore. Just more effective ways to accomplish something. Whereas a good aligned person would do the right thing even though it's harder, somebody devoid of emotions would do the easiest thing, which usually comes down to something people would call evil. Even though you're intentions weren't evil because you simply don't care doesn't change the fact that you did something evil and will keep on doing evil stuff because it's easier or more effective. All of this -will- turn your character evil. And on a side-note, I just confused a spot of coffee on the wall with a spider and I punched it. My knuckles hurt.

Perhaps it could be a Draenei who feels that the Light has betrayed him/her in some way, and has turned to the Shadows.

Maybe this Draenei saw a Paladin murder his/her friend. Or commit some act of injustice. Which made them think 'Damn the Light, if all its followers are zealous murderers!'

Just throwing it out there. :P

That's pretty much what my Draenei Death Knight was like. Only that she had served the light her entire life and the only thing it did was take her family away.

Regarding a lack of emotion... That sounds like me irl, however I am not evil. I choose between
Right and wrong - which is not solely based on how one feels.

If the game mechanics allow a draenei to be a shadow priest then this should
Be allowed however the player should be well aware that there will be consequences based
On how other characters view this. It just part of the game.

Something to consider.. What happens if word gets out that this character is a *sinner* so to speak?
The minute you use shadow magic in front of others, you risk being discovered.
I'm not saying it should not be done - personally I like complex and unorthodox characters...
Just saying don't expect acceptance icly.

I made randian with this sort of conflict in mind - a religious holy priest with stong inclinations towards evil primarily because I thought the contrast would
Make for some interesting situations.

Good luck.

Roxas65 Wrote:True. The one thing you've failed to account for is how using shadow magic robs the user of her emotions. After prolonged use, your character will fail to recognize right from wrong and only see effective means for an end, effectively making the character "evil."

This is in fact something codified by Therai, who is going to train me IC. For one thing, it isn't exactly canon, and is from interpolating things into the lore that aren't explicitly mentioned. For another, I do in fact plan to factor it in, but Therai and I both agreed it won't be as significant because of several factors: For one, Antia has not been using Shadow anywhere near as long as her teacher; it took many, many years for the corruption to affect Therai. Additionally, Therai tells me OOC that she deliberately suppresses her own emotions in addition to the effect channeling Shadow for so long has had on her.

I do plan on having it affect Antia, just not to the extent it affects Therai; her emotions will simply be muted, if you will. This doesn't mean she can't feel, or is in a state of complete apathy: think of it like the Flame and the Void from The Wheel of Time, if somewhat more corrupted. If she is in Shadowform, this will be more pronounced.

My aversion to "lack of emotion" isn't out of a Mary Sue-ish "But I can't have any flaws!" complex, it's just that roleplaying a fully emotionless character would be both extremely boring, not at all conducive to character development as well as the playing out of personal weaknesses. Antia would be incapable of cowardice, of making snap decisions that she'll regret, and of in-character snarking--the latter of which is entirely unacceptable.

Do the Tranquil from Dragon Age ring a bell? Who wants to RP with one of those? Who wants to RP as one of them? When it comes down to it, even logical decisions are based on emotionally-based goals and priorities: "I want to survive" is not logical; it is emotional. "I must stop the world from being destroyed and everyone in it" is emotional, not logical. The goals behind every single motivation are inherently based in emotion.

Also, why would a lack of emotion lead to being "evil?" Her muted emotions will make her less empathic, and less concerned about issues that sapients are instinctively inclined to avoid: for example, she would no doubt agree with Arthas' decision to raze Stratholme as a tragic necessity, because it would be best to kill the populace before they became threats to the uninfected. This is not evil; it is simply cold and impartial.

In the words of a certain Aussie: "Feelings?! Look, mate, you know who has a lot of feelings? Blokes what bludgeon their wife to death with a golf trophy. Professionals have standards: Be polite. Be efficient. Have a plan to kill everyone you meet."

I don't have much more to say, I've said my opinion, but I'm just posting in this thread again to say that the last part of your post might possible have been the best thing I've seen in a long time.

Roxas65 Wrote:Take a closer look at my statement, Bovel. It -would- pretty much make your character "evil." Lack of emotions would cause your character to not know right from wrong anymore. Just more effective ways to accomplish something. Whereas a good aligned person would do the right thing even though it's harder, somebody devoid of emotions would do the easiest thing, which usually comes down to something people would call evil. Even though you're intentions weren't evil because you simply don't care doesn't change the fact that you did something evil and will keep on doing evil stuff because it's easier or more effective. All of this -will- turn your character evil. And on a side-note, I just confused a spot of coffee on the wall with a spider and I punched it. My knuckles hurt.

Not to harp on the emotion/morality issue, but I was writing my post while rebooting to install a new hard drive and so I didn't see this until after I actually posted. This is actually an interesting point you make, and you are correct that it may make her appear "evil" to some, especially those who have a "follow your heart" or "your gut feelings are probably right" philosophy.

I think part of the issue is that we're defining "evil" as something different; I'm using it as a state of absolute, objective moral failure, while some are using it as though it is synonymous with unethical, which is not quite the same thing. Evil is killing an innocent person because you enjoy it. Evil is committing genocide because you view your people/race/creed as the only one that is important, and the others are lesser. Killing a murderer without taking him in for a fair trial is unethical. Destroying a town and its entire population because they're about to become thralls of a demonic being is unethical.

Someone might be driven to evil through emotion; be it a jilted lover murdering a rival or a despot committing genocide out of a misguided sense of patriotism and pride. Likewise, a logically-driven individual might take a cue from Legion and deem that, say, the Burning Legion's goals are unsuitable as they nullify the cultural and technological advancements of all sapients they encounter, and because all self-aware beings should self-determinate.

Also, don't punch spiders, because that is silly! Use your foot, or the Flying Lotus Palm Strike.

Roxas65 Wrote:I don't have much more to say, I've said my opinion, but I'm just posting in this thread again to say that the last part of your post might possible have been the best thing I've seen in a long time.

Well, thanks, who doesn't like the Snoipah?
That sunglasses-wearing, piss-throwing bastard who lives in a van deserves our respect.

hiddengecko Wrote:

Roxas65 Wrote:Take a closer look at my statement, Bovel. It -would- pretty much make your character "evil." Lack of emotions would cause your character to not know right from wrong anymore. Just more effective ways to accomplish something. Whereas a good aligned person would do the right thing even though it's harder, somebody devoid of emotions would do the easiest thing, which usually comes down to something people would call evil. Even though you're intentions weren't evil because you simply don't care doesn't change the fact that you did something evil and will keep on doing evil stuff because it's easier or more effective. All of this -will- turn your character evil. And on a side-note, I just confused a spot of coffee on the wall with a spider and I punched it. My knuckles hurt.

Not to harp on the emotion/morality issue, but I was writing my post while rebooting to install a new hard drive and so I didn't see this until after I actually posted. This is actually an interesting point you make, and you are correct that it may make her appear "evil" to some, especially those who have a "follow your heart" or "your gut feelings are probably right" philosophy.

I think part of the issue is that we're defining "evil" as something different; I'm using it as a state of absolute, objective moral failure, while some are using it as though it is synonymous with unethical, which is not quite the same thing. Evil is killing an innocent person because you enjoy it. Evil is committing genocide because you view your people/race/creed as the only one that is important, and the others are lesser. Killing a murderer without taking him in for a fair trial is unethical. Destroying a town and its entire population because they're about to become thralls of a demonic being is unethical.

I have to agree with this actually. You pretty much just described a Chaotic good character. But then not all villains are evil because they want to or for their own enjoyment. It's actually quite rare for a villain to have enjoyment as his motive. Villains often have a higher goal just like good aligned characters. Something like world domination or a quest for powers. Sure the goal is selfish and you could say it's for his "enjoyment" but the actual rode and the actions he takes to get there is not his enjoyment.

hiddengecko Wrote:Someone might be driven to evil through emotion; be it a jilted lover murdering a rival or a despot committing genocide out of a misguided sense of patriotism and pride. Likewise, a logically-driven individual might take a cue from Legion and deem that, say, the Burning Legion's goals are unsuitable as they nullify the cultural and technological advancements of all sapients they encounter, and because all self-aware beings should self-determinate.

True. But people can also become evil from apathy, something shadow magic leads too.

hiddengecko Wrote:Also, don't punch spiders, because that is silly! Use your foot, or the Flying Lotus Palm Strike.

I can't kick that high.

hiddengecko Wrote:

Roxas65 Wrote:I don't have much more to say, I've said my opinion, but I'm just posting in this thread again to say that the last part of your post might possible have been the best thing I've seen in a long time.

Well, thanks, who doesn't like the Snoipah?
That sunglasses-wearing, piss-throwing bastard who lives in a van deserves our respect.

Heh. I main sniper myself. EDIT: And he lives in a camper!

Even if we assume that being emotionless equates to evil in some way (which I don't quite buy into), corruption via magic is something that can be resisted. Warlockry and necromancy are far more corruptive than priest shadow magic, and it's possible to maintain one's alignment using either. Also, the idea of priest shadow magic turning people evil/emotionless is fanon, is it not? Unless someone can point me to an official source that says otherwise.

We've had long-winded discussions on these sorts of topics before. Forsaken holy priests are another. One thing I like to point out is that faith and spec do not necessarily have anything to do with one another, though they are often related due to theme and shared mentality. However, one who is faithful to the Light can still use shadow magics. How you rationalize this is entirely up to you.

Grakor456 Wrote:Even if we assume that being emotionless equates to evil in some way (which I don't quite buy into), corruption via magic is something that can be resisted. Warlockry and necromancy are far more corruptive than priest shadow magic, and it's possible to maintain one's alignment using either. Also, the idea of priest shadow magic turning people evil/emotionless is fanon, is it not? Unless someone can point me to an official source that says otherwise.

We've had long-winded discussions on these sorts of topics before. Forsaken holy priests are another. One thing I like to point out is that faith and spec do not necessarily have anything to do with one another, though they are often related due to theme and shared mentality. However, one who is faithful to the Light can still use shadow magics. How you rationalize this is entirely up to you.

This is correct. Also, Forsaken can use the Light (and be healed by it) but it requires immense willpower, and is extremely painful.

Q: Can you please explain how "light" works? The lore states that undead are physically incapable of using the light, much like the Broken, but then we have Forsaken players casting healing spells, and Sir Zeliek in Naxxramas using pseudo-paladin abilities.

A: Without spoiling too much, we can tell you that wielding the Light is a matter of having willpower or faith in one's own ability to do it. That's why there are evil paladins (for example, the Scarlet Crusade and Arthas before he took up Frostmourne). For the undead (and Forsaken), this requires such a great deal of willpower that it is exceedingly rare, especially since it is self-destructive. When undead channel the Light, it feels (to them) as if their entire bodies are being consumed in righteous fire. Forsaken healed by the Light (whether the healer is Forsaken or not) are effectively cauterized by the effect: sure, the wound is healed, but the healing effect is cripplingly painful. Thus, Forsaken priests are beings of unwavering willpower; Forsaken (and death knight) tanks suffer nobly when they have priest and paladin healers in the group; and Sir Zeliek REALLY hates himself.

Source.