Conquest of the Horde

Good evening, ladies and gents,

First off, I'll freely admit that I'm not a huge fan of roll combat. It may be fair, and it may be convenient, but it seems a bit too limited to me, and a bit too random. Still, it's the dominant form of combat here on CotH, so I've often been left wondering how to handle special attacks in a roll fight. I'll put some examples:

• A mage polymorphs their target -- what's to stop them from slitting their enemy's throat while they're a helpless sheep?
  
• An alchemist flings a vial of dreamless sleep potion, which bursts on impact -- how long is their target out from the fumes?
  
• A rogue strikes out with a quick attack, aiming to sever their target's wrist tendons. They hit, and given that realistically it becomes impossible to wield a sword when when you can't make a fist, how can you enforce this?
  
• An alchemist flings a vial of fire oil, which bursts on impact -- how long is their target on fire from the napalm?

There are some things that "Oh, you're down to 3 out of 5 HP" just can't realistically represent. How do you handle this?

1. I'm not sure if damage done to you while in polymorph actually transfers over, since it's an illusion... I can't really say though.

2. I believe that particular potion needs to be drank, if you threw it, it would just act like ay other liquid and sit there, rather useless.

3. Attack with a different part of the body. Use your left hand, shield bash them, head-butt, kicks, etc. There's a plethora of ways to attack...

4. Alchemist's fire is meant to last for a long time, without needing fuel. It's likely that whichever part of them catches, will stay on fire until they put it out. The vials aren't very large though, and you'd have to think about the fact that since it's splash damage, not -all- of it will hit them. The bigger the vial, the larger the area, the longer it lasts.

While I appreciate the answers, it doesn't address the overall nature of the question, largely. The point was that roll combat seems rather unable to properly quantify special attacks and turns every fight into a straight-up brawl with no chance for inventive fighting. I was wondering if there were any "general rules" that could be used to take inventive combat into consideration.

Beltharean Wrote:1. I'm not sure if damage done to you while in polymorph actually transfers over, since it's an illusion... I can't really say though.

It was my understanding that polymorph was an actual transformation spell, rather than simply an illusion. Do you have any source material that indicates its illusory nature? The spell description itself states, "Transforms the enemy into a sheep..." It goes on to say, "...Any damage will transform the target back into its normal form..." but thinking on it, when I attacked an individual I'd polymorphed in PVP, the damage I dealt to them didn't disappear the moment it broke sheep. They came out of sheep form -with- the damage inflicted. So while they might reappear in their original form as soon as the mage cut their throat, they would still have to deal with their carotid and windpipe being severed.

Beltharean Wrote:2. I believe that particular potion needs to be drank, if you threw it, it would just act like ay other liquid and sit there, rather useless.

I was just basing my assumption of its gaseous nature on WoWwiki, which mentions that "...if sniffed or tasted, the subject becomes mildly drowsy for a few moments..." You're right -- it won't knock you out directly, but it would cause a temporary loss of coordination. How do you account for this? -20 to attack rolls, or +20 to defense rolls, or loss of a turn, or...? The way it stands right now, most people would just ignore it and attack as though nothing happened. How can this be dealt with?

Beltharean Wrote:3. Attack with a different part of the body. Use your left hand, shield bash them, head-butt, kicks, etc. There's a plethora of ways to attack...

Most people train exclusively with their dominant hand. Losing that would cause a severe inhibition in your ability to attack. This is represented in regular combat in WoW by having off-hand damage decreased. In D&D, there's a -4 attack penalty to off-hand attacks. In roll combat? There's nothing -- you can just toss your sword to the other hand and keep whacking away, realism be damned.

Beltharean Wrote:4. Alchemist's fire is meant to last for a long time, without needing fuel. It's likely that whichever part of them catches, will stay on fire until they put it out. The vials aren't very large though, and you'd have to think about the fact that since it's splash damage, not -all- of it will hit them. The bigger the vial, the larger the area, the longer it lasts.

That's the whole thing, though: there's no rules saying how easy it is to put out magical fire. Will stop, drop, and roll handle a fire that doesn't need fuel to burn? If so, doesn't that mean it won't need oxygen? Also, given that it is independent of fuel, would it actually burn a target?

I would argue that all of these questions I've raised (both initially, and with the answers you graciously provided) show that roll combat is not at a point where individual creativity plays a part. It's all dumb luck. Is this how it should be? I have my doubts.

[EDIT] Edited to make some additional notes.

IMO, If you 'could' slit your victims throat from polymorph, that would be kind of god modding? Seeing as you could just go Lolpolymorphs all the time. Also, speaking for myself, when i generally fight via roll, both players normally establish that after the rolls have finished, the effects wares off in such cases as fire and gases. Broken bones or cuts to tendons do stick throughout the fight, but using the over hand can easily be explained OOCly, and it depends on the other player.

Personally, when I host events (not so often nowadays) I -do- take into consideration those sorts of things. If someone gets their wrist tendon torn apart, they get a -15 to attack rolls, if someone is on fire, they have to roll over say, 10 or 20 the next round to see if they take damage (unless they manage to put it out), yada yada. I don't normally do that in regular roll combat however, since it gets really confusing, really quickly, and if you're a combatant, then people might think you're being biased, etc. etc.

And also, that's why all my characters carry guns... Your hand's wobbly, but it's not that hard to get off a good shot with you're left hand if you're a righty, heh.

Volshi Wrote:IMO, If you 'could' slit your victims throat from polymorph, that would be kind of god modding? Seeing as you could just go Lolpolymorphs all the time.

God modding? Perhaps. I would be more inclined to describe it as a class strength -- there are ways to stop it, after all, such as silence effects or even simply resisting the spell. I've always found, in my opinion, that the power of magic has always been severely neutered here: it would stand to reason that a person who controls the powers that created and shaped the very world itself could annihilate an individual armed with a chunk of hammered metal relatively easily.

It all comes down to balance, of course, and creativity in your combat. A mage could polymorph an individual and kill them with the next move, yes, just as a warrior could smash someone down and break their neck while they were stunned. Just as a rogue could poison the soup with sarin and kill off an entire wedding party. Just as a hunter could shoot you through the eye. If you continually swing, fire, or cast at someone randomly, expect the person who uses a little tactical maneuvering and thought to firmly whup you if they really want to.

Volshi Wrote:Also, speaking for myself, when i generally fight via roll, both players normally establish that after the rolls have finished, the effects wares off in such cases as fire and gases. Broken bones or cuts to tendons do stick throughout the fight, but using the over hand can easily be explained OOCly, and it depends on the other player.

You're right: the effects of a severed tendon do depend on the character. But some logical rules do apply: if you're right handed, and have trained with your right hand, don't expect to fight well with your right hand hanging limp and painful at your side. If your Achilles tendon is cut, don't run away at full speed and expect me not to call you on it. The question is how to represent this in a roll fight: if your primary hand is disabled, the one that you've trained with for your entire life, what happens?

Allow me to mention, further, that the idea that a fire or gas would simply wear off after a few seconds concerns me, especially in the case of magical or alchemystical/chemical fire. A fire has a bad habit of just continuing to burn and burn and burn, doubly so if it is a magical or alchemy-based conflagration. Why would it be gone after a round if no action was taken to stifle it or extinguish it in some manner? Gasses have their own can of worms. Dreamless sleep gasses? Yes, I agree, the effect be short lived -- but it should still affect the target during that round! The question is again one of representation: would rolls be modified by a set amount? Would a round simply be lost?

Without a clearcut set of rules to handle this, roll combat is lacking a way to reward the creative use of abilities, professions, and skills. It is all dumb luck -- which may be fine for some people, but seems silly and restrictive to me.

Beltharean Wrote:Personally, when I host events (not so often nowadays) I -do- take into consideration those sorts of things. If someone gets their wrist tendon torn apart, they get a -15 to attack rolls, if someone is on fire, they have to roll over say, 10 or 20 the next round to see if they take damage (unless they manage to put it out), yada yada. I don't normally do that in regular roll combat however, since it gets really confusing, really quickly, and if you're a combatant, then people might think you're being biased, etc. etc.

See, and that seems like a relatively clear-cut way of handling these kinds of situations to me. Some form of simple roll modifications to handle maiming, fighting while impaired (be it drugs, gasses, or just having dirt thrown in your eyes), and other special attacks.

Beltharean Wrote:And also, that's why all my characters carry guns... Your hand's wobbly, but it's not that hard to get off a good shot with you're left hand if you're a righty, heh.

You might find it harder than you think, if you try it. But you're right, in an emergency, a gun would be easier to use at point-blank range than a sword could ever be. Just cram the muzzle up to their face and pull the trigger. You'd only have one shot with a flintlock, though, because reloading one of those one-handed is a bit of a trick.

rentreality Wrote:I've always found, in my opinion, that the power of magic has always been severely neutered here

I would like to agree with you and add something here: Arcane/Magic fire burns until whatever force that fed it the arcane energy to appear is cut off. For example, if I conjure an arcane fireball into my hand, as long as I supply energy to it, that thing will burn underwater.

I just wanted to say as a side note that I'm not trying to advocate a way for people to easily kill off another person's character. I'm a firm believer in the 'character warning' system, and for OOCly discussing the results of any given action in party chat during the fight. Just as an example,

Chambers grins savagely as the arcane energies flow through her.
[Chambers] says: Arcana polymorphica ovis aries!
[Chambers] rolls 72 out of 100.
[Targetplayer] rolls 48 out of 100.
Targetplayer bahhs helplessly, running around as a fluffy white little sheep.
Chambers grabs a fistful of the sheep's thick coat, pinning it down as she hefts her knife. It glints wickedly in the air as she swings it under the creature's neck.
[Party] [Chambers]: Hey, listen, Chambers is gonna try to slit your character's throat. I'd be more than happy to have her cut it but miss a vital spot, so you'll live, if you agree that you'd be out of the fight because of the injury.

I'm a huge fan of trust. With rolls though, I always thought it to be courtious to look at what my attacker does from a logical stand point. Okay, I was just hamstringed. I should fall, and fight to the ground. Not wince from the pain and keep going.

Sleep potion? My rolls are now to get my ass awake. Sheeped? Roll to resist the effect and go back to normal. Fire oil? I flail like crazy trying to put my butt out.

Heh, I think the problem isn't in how it's done, rolls or trust, but in how it's played off. Too often to I see the defense "I raise my shield" or the attack "I swing my sword." I come from a place where ammount of posts dictates whether you win or not... which can get into a duel of the e-peen quick.

So, I try to find the middleground. A bit of fairness with a good sized, logical post.

Rensin Wrote:I'm a huge fan of trust. With rolls though, I always thought it to be courtious to look at what my attacker does from a logical stand point. Okay, I was just hamstringed. I should fall, and fight to the ground. Not wince from the pain and keep going.

Sleep potion? My rolls are now to get my ass awake. Sheeped? Roll to resist the effect and go back to normal. Fire oil? I flail like crazy trying to put my butt out.

Heh, I think the problem isn't in how it's done, rolls or trust, but in how it's played off. Too often to I see the defense "I raise my shield" or the attack "I swing my sword." I come from a place where ammount of posts dictates whether you win or not... which can get into a duel of the e-peen quick.

So, I try to find the middleground. A bit of fairness with a good sized, logical post.

I think you just hit my nail on the head with a hammer of succinct clarity. You have effectively summed up my concerns and frustrations with the entire situation. It's why I wrote my guide on damage: too often, people shrug off what should be a wound that would leave you on the ground keening for your mommy.

Think of it this way: you need to RP realistically to a point, and have common sense. It's the same with roll-fighting. You need to put as much care into it as you would with any non-combat RP.