Conquest of the Horde

This post will be a list of GMs with some comments, but I promise that none of it will be rage or insults. I am only offering constructive criticism and I have nothing but respect for the GMs and what they do here, even though I do believe the system needs work. Normally, I stay out of these drama storms entirely, but so many people that I care about here just left, whether for reasons related to the drama or not, so I feel the need to step in and do my part to improve the community.

Kretol: Let me start by stating the obvious. Everyone here is extremely grateful for the effort you've put into creating a safe haven for WoW roleplayers. The internet can be a scary place, and most other private WoW RP servers are worse than CotH drama in their -best- moments. You've done a great job.

However (Yes, there's a however), after the several drama episodes we oldies have seen here, just ignoring them and letting it all pass doesn't seem to work anymore. It's easy to say "Drama will happen, so we shouldn't try to stop it," but we've all seen how that ends: Drama a few months later. As the top of the CotH hierarchy, you have to put your foot down more often. "The buck stops at Kretol."

Grakor: As you haven't been active online or in the public forums lately, there isn't much to say. What I will say is that I really don't think coming back from inactivity just to comment on drama calmed people down at all, despite your good intentions.

As for compliments, I remember RPing with you way back when you were multiboxing Karnokk and Balgarn. You saved Terant's hairdo, and for that I am eternally thankful.

Cressy: You do good work around here, most of the time. I'm sure you're not a bad wife or mother. Since I've been here for a while, I'm going to say that your RL stress excuse is wearing thin, as it would not be justification for rude behavior for any other member of the CotH community. Even though it is your job around CotH to help the community and be a GM, it isn't helping the community if you come on here while you're overstressed, and I think that for your own benefit and the benefit of CotH, you should consider taking short breaks sometimes, as many of us do when we have RL stress. Nobody will think any less of you for taking some personal time once in a while to relieve the stress.

That said, I do appreciate everything you've done as a GM for me and everyone else on CotH. I've only roleplayed with you a few short times, but it has always been fun. I'd like to RP with you more, and hopefully I'll get the opportunity to in Pharaoh's new Blood Elf guild, which I assume you'll be part of =P. I think you're a valuable member of CotH just like anyone else here, and I feel my suggestions would help you as well, not just the player base.

Rensin: A lot of what I said for Cressy applies to you as well. I don't think I've ever RPed with you before, but even from the people who ragequit and insulted you I've heard a lot of good things about your skill. I know that you're one of the longest-standing GMs on this server, and you've done a great deal for everyone here whether they realize it or not. Sometimes we disagree on the forums, but that's kewl because you usually win the arguments anyway! I would definitely love to RP with you if you do start playing in-game again, though.

Once again, though, I believe the double standard in enforcement that seems to apply to some of the GMs, especially the ones who've been around for a long time like you, is a lot of what causes these drama storms in my opinion.

Nostra: You're a totally awesome roleplayer from the few times I've interacted with you IC. Alistus is honestly the best played evil character I have ever seen on WoW. Your RL stress, which you must have if you're Human (...Oh. That explains it), has not come out in your behavior here even once in the year and a half that I've been here. All I can say is keep it up!

Hawk: I've known you, like, over a year now. You were pretty much one of my first fwiends on CotH. I can't really think of any criticisms for you right now. If I do, I'll edit it in and/or tell you privately. You've been one of my favorite people on CotH since before you were a GM, and of course you still are.

Loxmardin: You're a great GM and a great player. Thank you for moderating this discussion thread and not combatting rage with rage, or ignoring the drama altogether. You've also been one of my favorite people for a long time, and I'm really glad to have gotten to know you even better recently. :3

Duskwolf, Anski, Walluce, Rigley, Sasail: I don't know you guys very well. At the most, I've RPed with you maybe a couple times or had random conversations in WSG or Barrenschat or something. As far as I know, you've been great GMs so far, so keep it up.

Preemptive disclaimer, just in case: I'm not sure how anyone could be offended by anything I've said here, but if you are then I apologize. This post was meant with the utmost respect for everybody on CotH. As all of you, I am only trying to help CotH recover from the recent drama, and prevent drama from occurring again rather than just ignoring it until the next episode.

There is one last message I have to many of the players before I end this post: If you are drama-mongering against the people who ragequit and/or on the "side" of the GMs, then you are still drama-mongering.

Apologies to everybody if none of this made sense. I tend to ramble on long posts. >_>

Errata Wrote:Please, stop these public appreciation threads. The only thing they ever do is exclude people.

People like me. :/
(died a little inside)

I'll just say this: We're never going to open the private forums. There's no use arguing it, because there's no chance it'll ever be done. The risks heavily outweigh the benefits, and the only reason people want to see it is either A) They're worried they're in it or B) They're 'just curious'. Believe me, there'd be no benefits from this. Just even MORE drama, and quite frankly, the fact that this was suggested because of the huge risk boggles me.

As for being able to approach GMs, saluku... not to sound rude, but that's just how you in particular feel. Before I was a GM I could've happily PMed Sasail because I spoke to him a few times and thought he was pretty cool. I wouldn't have PMed Grakor 'cause I didn't have much of a positive experience with him as a player. But when I was promoted? Entirely different story. Opinions change. Sometimes it's because of our natural instincts to comply with authoritative figures, or just because of bad events.

And before I go to sleep I'll finish with this: You can't expect to want things to change when you don't even know how they're done. That's just silly. That's like me saying I want the political system of say, Africa, to change. I don't know squat about it.

An interesting point, Dragonmad.

What the posts bear down to ends up just being screenshots or text logs most of the time, instead of brooding on what's wrong and that the person is evil and should be gone. Unless the infraction is severe enough, that's all there is. When the infraction IS severe, the staff comes together and discusses whether the incident is severe enough to warrant punishment. If none of the infractions are actually serious enough to warrant punishment, it comes down to just adding up infractions until the limit has been pushed, as decided by the staff.

If we simply just said '{X} broke Rule {#}, {#} and {#},' and leave it at that, it gives no inclination to what the offender had actually done. Let's say that a player had broken Rule Three, Language. If it leaves it at 'The player broke Rule 3,' how does that show what they had actually done? They could have sat in Barrenschat and swore up a storm of language, or they could have let a few words slip out. The judgment isn't shown. In typical cases such as that, it is simply a screenshot or text log displayed. There is no 'OH GOD THIS PLAYER WAS SWEARING!!!!' and shouting, half the time it is simply formally just posting exactly, verbatim, what the player had said. The other half is discussion on whether or not they should be punished.

Now, as a preemptive to an argument that has been brought before us before, is the theory of the 'snowball effect.' A player does something wrong, and someone on staff posts 'Hey yeah, that is pretty bad!' and another, and another, and another, before it's ground in everyone's minds that 'This player is terrible!' when in actuality what they had done wasn't really warrant of any punishment. This is, in theory, frowned upon by the staff and we tend to remind each other that we should watch out for just rolling on players like such. It would happen no matter if it was just the base, bare bones '[X] broke this rule.' style or the way we handle it right now, a mixture of formality infraction posting and discussion of the infraction severity.

Terant Wrote:There is one last message I have to many of the players before I end this post: If you are drama-mongering against the people who ragequit and/or on the "side" of the GMs, then you are still drama-mongering.

Drama Mongering? I... Don't think that is anyone's intention. And the more we talk about -them- the more its going to boil anyways. In my opinion they deserve to be made an example of. They have crossed the line and have done some flat out ignorant shit. No question. But.. Being on the -side- of the GM's is what frustrates me. First things first.. There are differences of opinion, but no sides per se. We are all supposed to be about the betterment of the community.

And if there -were- sides ( which there shouldn't be. -I- am not on a side ). Sides being. The GM's...The Players and Neutral...I don't understand why everyone gets upset with the people who keep this server running. Obviously the GM's have done more good than negative. To stand up for them, (when it's difficult for them to do on their own, without being accused of abusing authority) And get criticized for it is childish in my opinion. We need to stop trying to divide us up into groups, and cliques.

I doubt any "clique" that is formed has something to do with elite-ism it's just people who's characters are intertwined, people who get along, or people who are in remotely the same time zone.

ThePharaoh Wrote:

Terant Wrote:There is one last message I have to many of the players before I end this post: If you are drama-mongering against the people who ragequit and/or on the "side" of the GMs, then you are still drama-mongering.

Drama Mongering? I... Don't think that is anyone's intention. And the more we talk about -them- the more its going to boil anyways. In my opinion they deserve to be made an example of. They have crossed the line and have done some flat out ignorant shit. No question. But.. Being on the -side- of the GM's is what frustrates me. First things first.. There are differences of opinion, but no sides per se. We are all supposed to be about the betterment of the community.

And if there -were- sides ( which there shouldn't be. -I- am not on a side ). Sides being. The GM's...The Players and Neutral...I don't understand why everyone gets upset with the people who keep this server running. Obviously the GM's have done more good than negative. To stand up for them, (when it's difficult for them to do on their own, without being accused of abusing authority) And get criticized for it is childish in my opinion. We need to stop trying to divide us up into groups, and cliques.

I doubt any "clique" that is formed has nothing to do with elite-ism it's just people who's characters are intertwined, people who get along, or people who are in remotely the same time zone.

(Quoting because I'm going to comment, and if someone posts before I do, I'm not changing it, so what was quoted was the last thing I saw.)


There are sides. There are always sides, but it's not as if this can be boiled down into any kind of "us" vs "them" scenario no matter how you put it, and no matter who the "us" and who the "them" is.

The players who left can be divided between those who freaked out, and those who were/are tired of these cycles of relentless whining about how the server is set up, or how the GMs are mean, how the players don't treat the GMs fairly, or how certain GMs they don't like are terrible or blah blah blah.

To make an example out of all for the sins of the few really only causes more drama. Yes. We do need to get over what was said, but at the same time, something needs to be understood.

Those that left, be they right or wrong, and no matter how they went about it, for better or for worse, are still human. They were so upset by what happened that they felt the need to say what they said, and whether or not it was right, the fact remains that because this environment bothered them so much, something needs to be done.

The GMs aren't perfect, and neither are the players. That's how it is and how it will always be. No "side" is free of sin, and people will always turn things into sides. People like to feel that they, and their group are better. This is bad, but it's human nature and none of us is any better.

The fact of the matter is that something needs to be done once and for all. Bashing the people who left and turning the distressed into pariahs doesn't work. Complaining about the GMs or "siding with" them (I say that just because, while with good intentions, those who defend the GMs are effectively causing drama in their own right, just as the ones who have grievances are.) doesn't work. Calling people out doesn't work, and trying to wipe everything clean and pretend everything is good and tasty doesn't work.

I don't know what does work and I don't claim to, but clearly, people, it isn't what's been going down lately.

As a note to the "drama" that has been thrown out here for all members to see, even those that had no idea personal drama of this scale was even present, including myself.

I'd like to say, coming from a background that studies human behavior and thoughts, that threads that openly discuss such topics, including but not limited to; "grand exits" threads, appreciation threads, threads that acknowledge such drama, etc. Should, for the better of the community and to help settle the drama, be erased entirely. It is the only sure fire way to keep personal conflict to a minimum -- To not acknowledge that any is present in the first place.

As I'm sure everyone has heard, ignorance is bliss. But excluding such personal drama from the community is for the better.

I respect that everyone involved is truthful and forthcoming with their thoughts. But no community lives long on truth, it is a fact of society.

By no means is this any type of disciplinary order or "revolt" and under no circumstances should anyone follow these words, it's just something to keep in mind for everyone. Even threads that are honest and apologetic, such as this one, are like gasoline to the fire we all wish to avoid.

ThePharaoh Wrote:Drama Mongering? I... Don't think that is anyone's intention. And the more we talk about -them- the more its going to boil anyways. In my opinion they deserve to be made an example of. They have crossed the line and have done some flat out ignorant shit. No question.

I don't think drama mongering is anyone's intention. That doesn't mean it isn't happening unintentionally (Citing the example of the whisper game that Loxy used at the beginning of this thread) Someone can say something about a GM, and it snowballs. Someone can say something about someone who left, that also snowballs.

I do not believe that the people who left/were banned deserved to be "Made an example of" though. Rule #1 doesn't just apply to people who are still on CotH. Obviously what they did was bad, and it was stupid, and it was done out of emotion without enough rational thought. That doesn't make -them- horrible people either. I'm not trying to justify their actions or saying they were right, but they are still people and deserve to be treated the same way we would want to be treated.

Also, if you felt that the message was directed at you because of the PM I sent yesterday, I apologize, as that was not my intention. I'm actually grateful that you edited some of your posts in the goodbye threads and your signature.

Rumors will always start, and there might be a way to stop a good amount of them from the ground up.

In-game, when a player has done something wrong, a GM decides that what that player did was way out of line. This is what should happen. But when players or GMs (Whomever) turns it into a global announcement on any public channel, everyone is there to hear see. This doesn't happen many times, but I did observe this happen once and it turned into something a bit smaller than what has happened in the past days.

I believe that discretion is key to avoiding some unwanted drama. If someone does break a rule, any player or GM mustn't make it an 'announcement' for all to hear see. After-all, no-one should know what they did wrong except for that one person and GMs.

This also includes disputes between players as well. This, I've seena bit more often. No matter what the arguement is, it's always wise not to drag anyone else in. Again, it's esscentialy keeping it between those involved and (If needed) GMs to settle the matter.

I try to stay neutral to these things, but I'm not perfect nor would I want to be. It's human nature, as social creatures, to talk and that includes behind a person's back, good or bad. I've done it, you've done it but there's a right and wrong way to do it. Grade school, high school, college, your workplace - there will be drama, such is life. I've seen multiple arguments and ragequits, but when a person crosses a certain line (especially when it's thought out and formulated to deal major personal blows) then it becomes asinine. For the record I am happy to see Leth and Luce gone, am I going to bad mouth them here, no. Why? Because they did that themselves and to a level I could not have achieved on my own. They've given a crystal clear picture into their personalities and character. The way they handled things was not positive, just as simply showing up to troll the forums and make questionable posts is not positive.

When you remove cancer from your body, you can being the healing process. This is also true of CoTH and that is what we need to focus on. We have a very solid foundation that is Kretol and I trust the GM team will work hard at implementing new policies and rules to help the community run smoother and to help initiate growth. Should we pretend this didn't happen, no. Should we start moving on, yes. Now more than ever we should unite as a community, with our old and new friends, create exciting RP and get back to having fun. Issues will be dealt with but half needs to happen outside and half needs to happen behind closed doors. We need to rest assured that some change will happen, but it is also unnecessary to put on masks and firebomb a building to make it happen. We need to be better than that. We need to find common ground and regain that sense of community so we can continue to move forward. Take this for what you will, but I enjoy the people I am friends with on CoTH and I'd like to make more so my own suggestion is take a breath, take a break if you need it, chill out and take each day as it comes... in the end, it's just a game however emotions get involved and that's when we get hurt. Take care and see you in game, nubs.

Just a possible idea. I'm not supporting this as I support the private area for the GMs and admin staff staying that way. But, would it be in any way possible to allow players to request to see their own warning threads, or have a warning if they were getting close to a ban. Or, even, have a definate informing of the player if something has been said about them that is being put on that thread. That's happened to me once and now I'm simply curious. Does any of that happen anyways?

Yeah.

Erm, I -would- I like to see what the GMs have said in there about me. I'd say it would be reasonable, too. I know I'd be angry for a day or two, but after that, I'd just accept it.

Uuuh, erm, sorry for double posting but I just want to make something clear.

I've been warned a few times, about things. It's usually that I post stupid stuff in the forums or such. (Like the one with my random post in a profile, which Rensin warned me about)

Anywhoo, my point is, I trust that the Gms don't give out the warnings just from anything. So, seeing what I've been warned about, could help me not to do it again. And also... I'm curious! But only about my thread. Seeing the others' things would just make me uncomfortable.

I too would be quite curious about my own warnings, if I have any, and what they say about me. I think it wouldn't be a good idea to put other peoples up though, it might give people a bad impression of others for something like a minor slip up.

But anywho, now to my opinion about the events. I have been quite quiet about them since I really don't want to get mixed up in all this drama but I really think some people should just have a cup of concrete. Yes the GMs have their own private board, they need it to document everything and speak amongst themselves. Yes, not all the GMs do their job perfectly but that is completely normal, I seriously doubt anyone could read many profiles day after day consistently and not get bored of it. Kudos to the ones who do though.

Everyone does their job different, just live with it, really. Things are going smoothly here on CotH so, why complain?

Bounty-Hunter Wrote:I too would be quite curious about my own warnings, if I have any, and what they say about me. I think it wouldn't be a good idea to put other peoples up though, it might give people a bad impression of others for something like a minor slip up.

But anywho, now to my opinion about the events. I have been quite quiet about them since I really don't want to get mixed up in all this drama but I really think some people should just have a cup of concrete. Yes the GMs have their own private board, they need it to document everything and speak amongst themselves. Yes, not all the GMs do their job perfectly but that is completely normal, I seriously doubt anyone could read many profiles day after day consistently and not get bored of it. Kudos to the ones who do though.

Everyone does their job different, just live with it, really. Things are going smoothly here on CotH so, why complain?

Indeed! It seems there are three of us, now.