Conquest of the Horde

Personally, I'd prefer to be flexible like Drakus for example. At first he fought with a large sword, then a sword and shield and pulled out his gun when his oponent was far, and now he's like a brawler.

Everyone. No means no. Simple as that. If the GMs tell you not to do something, (especially three or four times) it's because that it simply doesn't make sense. Even -if- your Mage was strong enough to handle the kick-back of a firearm, it doesn't make sense that they would even need to use one.

I accept the rifle I'm talking about handguns. I'll skip the technomage handgun because I want to stick to playing a engineer.

So far there is cylinder based weapons in warcraft. Good examples is both
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=42447
and
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28581

Now both these weapons are the complicated versions of a revolver which is even more complicated version of the pepper-box (sorry for calling it a pepper-pot earlier) handgun:

This was invented way back in the fifteenth century. above's picture is more the 18th century version which I will tell you is primitive compared to some of wow's guns.

Now looking at Wolfslayer Sniper rifle I'd even say 19th century cylinder revolver style weapons is possible (not the modern versions).

I hope this shines some light on the subject

I understand the "no means no" part, I was merely asking because it's good to ask, and when I joined CotH I was told to ask as well. That's all.

Yes, and guns in general were invented way earlier by the chinese. Again, guns are relatively new invention in WoW, which shares -no- standard of time reference even close to our own.

Again, those are -like- pistols, but they need a large charge to move those bullets.


Edit: Yep, it's fine to ask and debate. What I meant when I said I get tired of arguing, is that people don't present information to support their point. When they say "well it's realistic"... yeah, okay. WoW isn't that realistic, so that's a moot issue.

When I say no, I will change my answer if sufficient info is presented.

Well the tech for cylinder based weapons is there in warcraft. So basically making a smaller lighter version is not that absurd. As for the push back, it is considerably weaker then a rifle. Instead of bracing yourself with both arms, you could fire it while it is held in your hand. Fire a few rounds and I'm sure it will hurt your hand (A lot if it uses a wheel lock) but not send you flying backwards like a boom stick. Thing is if I would rp firing such a weapon I would need to use it at close range since it's size does mess with it's accuracy.

Hey look. It's Rentreality. I guess he lurks.

Pistols in WoW: Arcanite Steam-Pistol

That rifle recoil table is for modern smokeless powder, which combusts very quickly, and provides a large charge of gas to drive the projectile. This is a relatively modern convenience: historical black powder, like what would be used in a flintlock, is slow burning. This reduces the kick significantly, but also drops your range and accuracy: you have to draw a bead on someone longer while your powder burns until it hits a "critical mass" of sorts, all the while getting a faceful of acrid, blinding smoke. It's not fun. As a side note, using modern smokeless powder in a flintlock would blow your barrel into shrapnel and kill you dead.

The type of weapon affects its kick as well. A black powder rifle will have a different kick than, say, an assault rifle. An assault rifle will have a different kick than a 12-gauge shotgun. For reference, I often shoot a 12-gauge, but I avoid rifles larger than a .22-caliber like the plague: if you don't find the sweet spot on your shoulder for the butt, an assault-caliber weapon will leave you with a stiff, black and blue arm for the next week or so.

Generally .22 weapons are appropriate (in size and kick, at least) for an average 12-year-old's body. Heavy shotguns like a 12-gauge can be handled by a person in their middle teens. Assault rifles, well... An adult who's taken the time to learn how to use them can handle it. It's all about your foot placement and finding the "meaty" crook in your shoulder. I've just never taken the time.

Keep in mind that flintlocks went out of style for a reason: one of the more famous ones, the Brown Bess, weighed ten pounds and was nearly five feet long -- and you had to hold it still and steady for a period of time after you pulled the trigger, while getting blinded and choked by powder smoke, until the delayed kick finally hit you and you could wipe your eyes to see if you actually hit whatever the hell you had it pointed at!

Okay. Do with this what you will. Back to lurking.

EDIT: Forgot to mention. In a .22 rifle, the bullet is .223 inches in diameter. The Brown Bess tossed a ball .71 inches in diameter out of a .75 inch barrel. That's effing monstrous, but the difference in the ball and barrel size in the Bess is important: a barrel that isn't tight-fitting will reduce the recoil further by allowing gas to escape around the shot, relieving the pressure, and it will also drop your accuracy. Rifles have that "rifling" -- the spiral groove(s) inside their barrel -- for a reason: it puts a spin on the bullet and keeps it going straight and clear longer. Flintlocks and shotguns are smoothbores, and so lose this effect. It's the reason a slug from a shotgun isn't as accurate as a rifle bullet at a significant range. It's also the reason nobody ever bothers to put a scope on their shotgun.

Thank you very much rentreality. So I just have to stick with shotguns then? xD

Werewolf1 Wrote:Thank you very much rentreality. So I just have to stick with shotguns then? xD

Shotguns have the added benefit of being difficult to miss with at a medium range. Just point in the general direction and pull the trigger. The spread of shot will do the rest. Ha!

I exaggerate, but seriously, I'm a shotgun enthusiast for a reason.

What would you say about a revolver and an old style Carbine rifle? To much of a kick for a skinny mage or not?

Werewolf1 Wrote:What would you say about a revolver and an old style Carbine rifle? To much of a kick for a skinny mage or not?

I don't have any real experience with handguns, I'll admit. I've fired a .334 magnum revolver, and I thought I broke my wrists, even though I was in the right position. That's a .334, though -- those are mankillers. At close range they'll punch through a bulletproof vest like a cannonball through tin foil.

In my book, Old West-style carbines are even more evil than a modern assault-style rifle. I've shot a saddle rifle, and I don't think my shoulder will ever be the same after that. Largely, more modern carbines are effectively a rifle with a shorter barrel. Historically speaking, if memory serves, they were short rifles with smaller bores. The recoil would be less, yes, but your range and accuracy might be abysmal -- they suffered from the same issues as their flintlock rifle counterparts.

Carbines is out then.

Would the more classical lighter revolvers also break your wrist or be usable by a skinny guy?

Werewolf1 Wrote:Carbines is out then.

Would the more classical lighter revolvers also break your wrist or be usable by a skinny guy?

As a rule of thumb, the smaller the caliber, the smaller the amount of powder needed to drive the bullet or ball, and the smaller the recoil.

Also, as a note for my personal experience with firearms: at the time I was shooting some of them, I was severely underweight from a medical condition. The .334 magnum, for instance, was when I was 6'0" (1.8 meters) and 110 pounds (49.8 kilograms). Rifles and shotguns came later, after I had gotten treatment and I was in a more normal weight range -- something like 6'0" and 140-145 pounds (63-65 kilograms). It's an important note for determining how a character would react to the recoil.

EDIT: As another note, this is all hypothetical. I'm not a GM, so I can't say who could or could not use a gun. I'm just trying to help people find some guidelines to determine, realistically, what they could use.

Very interesting. So as long as I stick to small caliber weapons my mage would be able to easily use firearms? Or at the very least fire more then one shot without getting medical treatment.

Werewolf1 Wrote:Very interesting. So as long as I stick to small caliber weapons my mage would be able to easily use firearms? Or at the very least fire more then one shot without getting medical treatment.

Certainly. .22 rifles are made for children -- and .22 caliber weapons kill a good number of people every year, heh, usually by accident.

What I would be concerned about is the fact that smaller caliber weapons like a .22 take much more precision to manufacture than, say, a generic flintlock rifle. The bore and bullet must be precisely machined or you'll block your barrel and kill yourself with your own gun. However, it would be possible for your mage could simply reduce the amount of powder they use in each charge on a classic flintlock. The less powder there is exploding, the less recoil they'll have to deal with. Saw off the barrel (sacrificing accuracy even more, unfortunately) to remove some weight and make it a little easier to handle, and there you go.

I'll say this, though, too: I'm not entirely sure what the rifles are in WoW. They're somewhat nonsensical. For the most part, they have a flintlock's hammer-and-pan setup, but if you go by the icon of the bullets (Example) they use cartriges. You can't set off a cartridge like that with a hammer-and-pan setup. It just doesn't work that way.

In a flintlock setup, the hammer swings down and creates sparks, igniting the powder in the pan. The powder burns down through the touchhole, and ignites the main charge of loose or paper-wrapped powder which fires the rifle. In a cartridge setup, at least for those types of cartridges, a firing pin dents the back or side of the bullet, which compresses and ignites a primer that serves to detonate the main charge and fire the rifle.

Who knows? I guess I'll file that inconsistency in Blizzard's firearm technology under the same heading as the WW-I era heavy guns aboard the Skybreaker...